Cards or Position? (1 Viewer)

[chkmte]

In general, what's more important in NLHE? Better cards or better position? For example, would you rather have A/Ko UTG or a J/7s on the Button? Let me hear your logic.

 

[detroitdad]

cards

 

[gopherblue]

Cards in position.






But seriously: cards.

 

[Trihonda]

I might fold J7o pre, even on the button. But i play loose...

 

[ChipEnvy]

Cards

 

[kmccormick100]

I'll take position, almost always. Anything playable from late position.

 

[fish72s]

In your example, AK UTG but only because J7o is so bad.
Change it to QJo OTB and it might be a closer call.

 

[yone]

I think it depends on table conditions too. My range can expand or contract depending on the types of players and how many players. When in doubt, I’ll probably take cards. Edit- when confident, position

 

[fish72s]

Position is about decisions.
Bad cards (or so-so) cards can get you into difficult spots post-flop where you really need that extra information that position gives you.
Actually this is true pre-flop too. When deciding to play a hand UTG you have no idea how many players will be in the hand or if there will be a raise (or re-raise)
In deciding to play a hand OTB you already have (most) of this information already.
In general, good cards make decisions easier.
So I'd take QTo OTB before ATo UTG anyday.

 

[DrStrange]

Playing 100bb or less, cards.

Playing 300bb or more, position.

Playing at a passive table, cards.

Playing at an aggressive table, position.

The weaker the table, the more I value cards.

Vs. strong villains I prefer position.

In short, it depends -=- DrStrange

 

[Rhodeman77]

If we are talking marginally better cards from out of position than in position I’ll take the in position hand.

AKo vs J7 suited is a lot bigger quality difference and I will take the better hand for sure out of position.

When playing out of position we want to be playing a much stronger range to make our decision making process easier.

 

[RichMahogany]

Position.

Sometimes you need cards

 

[chkmte]

In your example, AK UTG but only because J7o is so bad.
Change it to QJo OTB and it might be a closer call.

Y'all keep quoting J/7o but I actually used J/7s in my example.

 

[JustinInMN]

Position all day. It's very difficult to maximize value from out of position, even with strong hands.

If you get good at reading players (or if the opposition is weak predictable nits) playing out of position gets easier.

But I think last action just ensures max value in favorable spots

 

[JustinInMN]

In general, what's more important in NLHE? Better cards or better position? For example, would you rather have A/Ko UTG or a J/7s on the Button? Let me hear your logic.

To the specific question J7s otb all day for me. While I think it's an okay limp otb, part of the advantage of being the button is the opportunity to fold when there is unfavorable action before I act.

With AKo in EP I am always putting in an open raise and not thinking of folding unless it gets 3- and 4-bet after me. Even with AKo on the button I can fold comfortably if the there are two or three raises before me, but it's tougher if I have already opened early depending on sizing.

 

[trigs]

Cards. If you're getting hit in the face with the deck you're going to be winning hands from any position.

 

[Highli99]

The third variable in play here is stack size. Hard to talk about these without that.

IMO

cards > stack >position > cards

 

[Coyote]

Would you bluff to steal OTB in a table where different types of players and stack sizes have -almost all- limped in (each for their own different reasons, apparently)?
I guess not with thin air. Cards matter too.
BTW, would you try with a pair of deuces or J10off?

 

[chkmte]

Interesting mix of opinions here. Good stuff. The only problem I see in relying on 'cards' is that some nights, they don't show up. While position is as reliable as can be. It's a tough question to answer with so many unknowns.

 

[JustinInMN]

It's a good question for a simulation. 1000 hands of each, which has more ev?

Even if AKo UTG proved better it would be interesting to find out the hand of equivalent EV on the button.

 

[Trihonda]

My problem with J7 is that you really never know where you are at... I think this brings up RIO issues imho.

With AK, if you hit the flop, you are more than likely ahead and can safely commit chips. With J7 if you hit the flop... well who knows...

 

[BGinGA]

Y'all keep quoting J/7o but I actually used J/7s in my example.

Suited junk is still junk.

 

[Steve Birrer]

It is too varied a question to answer without specific hands to discuss. In your example you gave the option of a very strong starting hand OOP vs a crappy hand in position. That's a no brainer. Cards anyday.

 

[bivey]

Playing 100bb or less, cards.

Playing 300bb or more, position.

Playing at a passive table, cards.

Playing at an aggressive table, position.

The weaker the table, the more I value cards.

Vs. strong villains I prefer position.

In short, it depends -=- DrStrange

I love you Dr. Strange.

 

[Cyo]

Depends on stakes. At lower levels, cards matter more. The better the player pool, the more position trumps cards.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Depends on stakes. At lower levels, cards matter more. The better the player pool, the more position trumps cards.

Ok I get to pick my starting hand and you get to pick your position. Lets see how that works out for you....lol

 

[PlaidDragon]

Cards or Position?

Yes.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

For NLHE it’s Position and it’s not even close!

 

[DRacula]

Position.

Expected Value by position

1. We have no control over the frequency of being dealt “good cards”, we are guaranteed the frequency of positional advantage at least 1/9 hands or once an orbit.

2. “Good cards” are defined by their raw pre flop equity, which can change dramatically for better or for worse as the hand progresses. Positional advantage is in perpetuity.

3. “Good cards” can be difficult to play when out of position, all hands as well as bluffing are much easier when in position. As a general rule of thumb, the money on a poker table moves to the left.

It’s nearly impossible to quantify the advantage of either, however I would speculate that “Good cards” have a higher expected value with high volatility/large standard deviation in the short term, while position has a lower positive expected value and low standard deviation.

 

[RainmanTrail]

The intersection of cards and position is ultimately what you should care about. But in general, position is more important than cards IMO. But only if you understand how and why.