Can anybody find a fold?

Leonard

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The early betting can certainly be discussed, but the action is on the river.

Venetian 1/2 NLHE. I'm in the BB with about $600. SB is a very pleasant asian portfolio manager from NYC, with about $500. Aggressive but picks his spots, and seems to know what he is doing. CO is another asian guy, 30 or so. Lost his first $300 to a suck-out 45 in ago but has recently almost doubled up with a 2PR hand to appx. $500. Hasn't played a lot of hands, only moderately aggressive.

Limped to me in the BB with AKo. I make it 12 to go and get 4 callers including the CO and SB.

Flop is KTT, two spades. SB checks, and I lead out $30. The CO and SB call.

Three handed to the turn: a red 3. KTT3, two spades. Checked around.

River is anther K. The board is now KTT3K. I bet $50. CO shoves. SB calls. Back to me....

Can anybody find a fold? Should I even think about it?

L
 

jbutler

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Can anybody find a fold? Should I even think about it?

if i'm playing well and i'm clear-headed, i think i can find a fold given your description of CO. i know it sounds ludicrous, but consider that a chop is often the best case scenario here, so you're calling $408 to win $125.

however, if i'm in my typically fucking-around, donking-it-up mode, i call it off and tell the guy to suck it when he turns over quadzilla.
 

Schmendr1ck

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100% snap call unless CO or SB literally shows you TT before you act. Even then I might tank for a minute. ;)
 
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Trihonda

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So many hands that might inspire villain to shove in this spot (33, 10x, Kx...) So, you have the absolute second nutz. snap call. I can't put Villain on 10-10 due to pre-flop action. You're ahead.

Does the V have a BB? Would KKKTT beat by quad 10's qualify?
 

jbutler

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So many hands that might inspire villain to shove in this spot (33, 10x, Kx...) So, you have the absolute second nutz. snap call. I can't put Villain on 10-10 due to pre-flop action. You're ahead.

Does the V have a BB? Would KKKTT beat by quad 10's qualify?

why would any reasonable villain shove 33 or 10x? imo a villain would shove those hands in two possible circumstances: (1) he is a complete moron; or (2) he believes he can make hero lay down what hero might perceive to a chop.
 

Ben

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You should definitely think about it. I'd need a little more than the info provided in OP to actually do it, but at the table I might have it. If you have good enough reason to believe that both of these guys are competent and/or nitty enough to not just stack off with a ten here, this is a fold. Certainly HOW these guys made their shove and call would be an important factor as well.
 

bergs

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Limp call $12 pre flop and waits till the river to fire the nutterbutter jam with TT? That's a pretty specific situation, nevermind that the player is not Timmy McTightiepants.

I'm actually jamming there, never folding, and never calling.

EDIT: Read again, I thought the SB who called had chips behind. If has a white chip left over, I'm still jamming.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

why would any reasonable villain shove 33 or 10x? imo a villain would shove those hands in two possible circumstances: (1) he is a complete moron; or (2) he believes he can make hero lay down what hero might perceive to a chop.

I've made the bet him off a chop bet a bunch of times, and I'm occasionally a moron, but if I had TT, I jam turn when the perceived draws are still out there and you want to get the money in.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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I call. Sure, someone could have quads. Or the first dude could be bluffing. Or they could also be partnering up you never know. I'm sure I know a couple nits who might fold though.

Plus, don't you think someone would have raised with tens pre-flop?
 

Mental Nomad

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I've had this discussion with a friend about situations just like this. This is how we see your story:

You're a lion on the Savannah, hiding in the brush. Before you, there is a gazelle you've been stalking. You're hungry, the gazelle is in front of you, and you're ready to pounce... but then you have a thought: what if this is a Super Gazelle?

A Super Gazelle.

You can't live like that. You can't live in fear of the Super Gazelle. You need to eat.

It very, very, very rarely turns out to be a Super Gazelle. When it does, you just rebuy.
 
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Trihonda

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why would any reasonable villain shove 33 or 10x? imo a villain would shove those hands in two possible circumstances: (1) he is a complete moron; or (2) he believes he can make hero lay down what hero might perceive to a chop.

Upon re-reading the board in the OP, ya, as the villain, I'd never shove with 33, it's the lowest boat possible (unless my table read was the hero had air). I just can't put villain on 10-10.
 

Dr Lecterr

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Its absolutely never a fold. Especially for under 1k. If it's quads, just chuckle and rebuy.
 
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DrStrange

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Hmmm . . . . Let's see what Hero thinks of the villains
SB is aggressive but picks his spots, and seems to know what he is doing.
CO hasn't played a lot of hands, only moderately aggressive.
I note that neither guy sounds like a LAGtard or completely clueless.

As for raising preflop with pocket tens - - look and see what happened when hero raised, he gets five way action. I can see all sorts of reasons to limp TT at a table like this at least some of the time in CO and almost all of the time in the SB.

Hero should be thinking about "It" starting on the flop. SB checks, Hero c-bets and gets two calls. OK, lets range the villains with draws, kings, trip tens, rarely pocket aces and tens. No one has 33.
Hero checks the turn and it gets checked around. More likely now the villains are both playing a weaker king or a draw.
On the river, SB checks, Hero bets and CO shoves. OK, it makes perfect sense for CO to have a king like KQ or KJ. Rarely pocket tens, but possible. Looking at the villain reads CO doesn't look like a bluffer here and we have to wonder if CO held T-X, why he didn't bet the turn.

The UGLY UGLY moment comes when SB calls. Now we have to decide which is true - - - A) one of these villain is stacking off with tens full (or a crazy bluff from CO), either CO tried to bluff with tens full or SB calls a multiway pot with tens full or b) someone flops quads and somehow two player make the nut full house on a one-out river.

This is not a snap decision. Hero needs to think about this really, really hard. It is not out of the question that CO or SB super slow played his trip tens and can't make the mental switch from predator to prey. I have seen that a lot when a powerhouse preflop hand or a flopped set goes to hell and the villain can't lay it down.

{sloppy math} Hero owes a bit more than $400. The pot prior to his call is a bit more than $1,100 so Hero is risking $400 to win half of $1,500. basically a even money prop{see, sloppy}.

I think there is better than 50% chance someone got sticky stupid with trip tens. Hero's villain reads are thin, maybe someone is drunk, jet lagged or just bad - not good enough to put someone on flopped quads more than half the time. So I am calling but prepared to see bad news.

DrStrange

PS for those who are snap calling - - - I encourage you to try and think from the point of view of the villains and see how one of them could be stacking off with trip tens given the villain reads. Three way action when only two of us can have the top full house means someone is trapping or making a huge mistake. With the right villain, the huge mistake is easy to believe but here Hero needs to think about what is going on.

You know the vintage saying, "If you can't figure who the sucker is at the table, it is likely you".

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

If I had to write how Hero could win this hand, here is my story.

CO limps with KQ, SB calls a buck with JT. Hero makes it $12 to go and they join the crowd.

SB flops trip tens and decides to slow play. {we don't have Hero's table image but lets say he is aggressive.} Hero bets half pot, CO can't lay down top pair for that price and SB decides to trap one more street.

SB checks the safe turn but Hero does not cooperate and bet, which frustrates SB. Not surprising CO checks since all he beats are bluffs.

River spells trouble for SB so he checks. Hero bets, CO shoves in moments and SB snap calls without thinking (and without adjusting for the dramatic revaluation of his hand.)

Viola! Hero is a winner!!!

Well it could have happened that way -=- DrStrange

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

One parting thought - - this is much more of a snap call in a two way pot. It is only the fact we are three handed and someone IS the sucker, we just do not know who yet.
 

grandgnu

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Fist pump ship it in... you're chopping somebody's 500 99.9% of the time.

1204561.jpg
 

Leonard

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Result: I thought for what seemed like a long time then called. SB shows KQ and CO shows QJ for OESD that missed. I caught some sh!t for even thinking about folding. I felt like I had to consider it but ultimately couldn't fold without better reads/more experience with the involved players.

L
 

Mojo1312

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lol, timely response as usual. Who do you think will win the Superbowl? [emoji13]

This year, or next year?

I came home from work and opened the thread after checking my g-mail account. I read the posts on the first page. I didn't take notice of the time.
 

grandgnu

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I would love to avoid going down the same roads we did over at the great blue wall guys, just saying.....
 

courage

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Most villains with quads are not checking river from SB, they can jam knowing they'll get called by a K. Kudos to aggro CO for repping quads into two players but ultimately bad idea. It might have worked better if he bet big on the turn.
 
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