Tourney Calculating pot for PLO (1 Viewer)

[Beakertwang]

Anyone have good resources for calculating pot size for PLO/PLO8?

I’m preparing a league, and I’ll have at least one, perhaps two, PLO games over the course of 9 or 10 games. I want to be prepared in advance.

I think I have it figured out, but I want to be sure.

Example:
Blinds 25/50
Middle position raises to 150.
I’m on the button with AAKK dbl suited, and want to raise pot.
Pot is 25+50+150+150 (my call), totaling 375, so I couldn’t raise to 525. (I messed up my example, and @pltrgyst pointed it out. Fixed now.)

Is that correct?

Any tricks to doing this simply and effectively in a home game?

 

[pltrgyst]

Pot is 25+50+150+150 (your call) = 375, so you can raise to 525.

 

[pltrgyst]

Pot is 25+50+150+150 (your call) = 375, so you can raise to 525.

The best resource is a dealer who is good at handling pot-limit games. :

 

[Beakertwang]

Pot is 25+50+150+150 (your call) = 375, so you can raise to 525.

Oops, I messed up my example!

 

[fieldsy]

The simple rule in general for a player who hasn't yet bet this round (like the BTN player in your example) is three times the pending bet plus the "trail," which would be the sum of the bets that were already in before the last player to bet. Calculated that way, pot in your example would be 450 (3 x 150) plus the trail of 75 (25 + 50), for a max bet of 525.

That rule is harder to apply for a player who already has bet (for example, if the BB or initial raiser wanted to re-raise). There's a good resource that the WSOP makes available to its dealers here.

 

[Shaggy]

Incidentally, your middle position raiser "could" have raised to 200, but chose to bet less than the pot with 150.

 

[timinater]

The simple rule in general for a player who hasn't yet bet this round (like the BTN player in your example) is three times the pending bet plus the "trail," which would be the sum of the bets that were already in before the last player to bet. Calculated that way, pot in your example would be 450 (3 x 150) plus the trail of 75 (25 + 50), for a max bet of 525.

That rule is harder to apply for a player who already has bet (for example, if the BB or initial raiser wanted to re-raise). There's a good resource that the WSOP makes available to its dealers here.

+1

3x the last bet plus the dead money is most often accurate. There are some edge cases where it isn't, but this is the best rule of thumb.

In our games, when we play a PL game, it's on the raiser to know how much is in the pot. If they say pot and don't know the number, they get shamed mercilessly. Minimizes the times that people just shout pot when they raise. Typically everyone gets the benefit of the doubt when they say a number instead. If someone thinks it's too high on a big bet street we'll count it off.

 

[abby99]

It's not uncommon to count the small blind as complete, which would make a the raise to 550 (3*150 + 50 + 50).

You didn't ask, but rounding up is helpful, too, especially in a .25/.50 home game -- I hate keeping track of a pot with a bunch of quarters. Converting this examples to $$$, the calculation would be 3x$1.50 + .50 + .50 = $5.50, which rounds up to $6. It's also helpful to require that all bets following the blinds, including the opening bet, be in increments of $1.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

That rule is harder to apply for a player who already has bet (for example, if the BB or initial raiser wanted to re-raise). There's a good resource that the WSOP makes available to its dealers here.

It's not that much harder. You use the same calculation (3x the current action plus the trail), and then subtract what you've already bet in the current round.

So in this example, let's say the SB wants to pot again. It's 3 x 525 + the trail (150+50+25) - the chips you've already bet in this round (25) = 1775.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

It's not uncommon to count the small blind as complete, which would make a the raise to 550 (3*150 + 50 + 50).

You didn't ask, but rounding up is helpful, too, especially in a .25/.50 home game -- I hate keeping track of a pot with a bunch of quarters. Converting this examples to $$$, the calculation would be 3x$1.50 + .50 + .50 = $5.50, which rounds up to $6. It's also helpful to require that all bets following the blinds, including the opening bet, be in increments of $1.

Agreed, I think rounding in a cash game makes life much easier. Just make sure everyone knows how you are rounding before the game starts.

However, the link that @fieldsy provided above says that for the purposes of calculating preflop pot size, you should use "true PL" (SB = SB) for tournaments and "assumed completion" (SB = BB) for cash games.

 

[Coyote]

Edited, after having, at last, understood.

 

[abby99]

Agreed, I think rounding in a cash game makes life much easier. Just make sure everyone knows how you are rounding before the game starts.

However, the link that @fieldsy provided above says that for the purposes of calculating preflop pot size, you should use "true PL" (SB = SB) for tournaments and "assumed completion" (SB = BB) for cash games.

That makes sense. Thanks for pointing out the link.

 

[navels]

Incidentally, your middle position raiser "could" have raised to 200, but chose to bet less than the pot with 150.

Could have raised to 250, right?

 

[Shaggy]

Could have raised to 250, right?

nope, 200... assuming the rule where SB is assumed to be completed. When raising, in order to calculate the "current" pot, you first include your "call." So for the initial raise:
50+50+50(your call) = 150

So middle position can raise 150... on top of his 50 call. He can raise TO 200.

 

[navels]

ah, got it, thanks. be warned: i will ask this question again in a few months. and again. and again.

 

[pltrgyst]

Incidentally, your middle position raiser "could" have raised to 200, but chose to bet less than the pot with 150.

He could only have raised to $175 ( 50 to call, max raise of 125) without some special local rule.

 

[Coyote]

He could only have raised to $175 ( 50 to call, max raise of 125) without some special local rule.

I thought he could raise to 250 (ie by the pot, which is 125 including his call)

 

[CraigT78]

This whole thread is why I just announce "Pot!" immediately followed by "How much is it?"

 

[fieldsy]

He could only have raised to $175 ( 50 to call, max raise of 125) without some special local rule.

The "true pot limit" rule, i.e., the tournament rule, would only allow the initial raiser to raise to 175. The "assumed completion" rule often used in cash games would count the small blind as equal to the big blind, and the raise could be to 200. A rule of thumb for "true pot limit," assuming that the small blind is one-half the big blind, is that an initial raiser can open to 3.5x BB. At 25/50 you can raise to 175. At 50/100 you can raise to 350. Many pot-limit tournament structure sheets include this amount on the sheet. (Example here)

I thought he could raise to 250 (ie by the pot, which is 125 including his call)

Coyote, as to your question, you are correct that the initial raiser can raise "by the pot, which is 125 including his call." But remember that the bet in front of him is only 50 (the BB). So when you raise the bet of 50 by 125, you make it 175.

People get tripped up on this all the time. There's really no substitute for experience. But even players who have played thousands of hands of PLO will make mistakes in the counting.

 

[ekricket]

General rule is:

Make the call, then count how much has been bet so far, and that’s the additional amount you need to put in to complete the raise.

For example,

If no one has entered the pot preflop (except for the blinds) and you wanted to pot it then you would make the "Call" - the BB - and then you would count what was on the table for the additional amount. In this case it would be the SB+BB+yourBB additional.
You don't fucking say call ever, you say "Pot", but that's the thought process you should follow. And I just used SB because you can get into whether you count the SB as a full bet or what it actually is but that's a whole other can of worms.

If there is action coming to you, for example say you've seen the flop, and there is already 1500 in the pot, and some guy bets 600, then if you want to pot it then it would be 600 to make the "call", than 600+600+1500 more to complete the pot raise.

Basically when you want to bet the pot, make the "pot" right for the bets (Blinds are bets), then count everything that has been bet so far and that's the additional amount you owe to complete.


I'm sure someone has issue with this, as its much simpler than multiplying the weight of the chips times the diameter of the room minus the average height of the players divided by the number of beers left in the fridge, but I don't give a fuck what they think, its just simply making the pot right so you know how much additional to put in.

 

[Coyote]

Aaaah, so you include your call just to calculate what the new/current pot is, but you cannot double the new pot. You just add it to your call.

Thanks!

 

[Beakertwang]

Also, do I reduce the starting stacks for PL games? Instead of 200bb for NLHE, do 100bb for PLO?

 

[fieldsy]

General rule is:

Make the call, then count how much has been bet so far, and that’s the additional amount you need to put in to complete the raise.

I'm sure someone has issue with this, as its much simpler than multiplying the weight of the chips times the diameter of the room minus the average height of the players divided by the number of beers left in the fridge, but I don't give a fuck what they think, its just simply making the pot right so you know how much additional to put in.

I hope no one has an issue with it. That is literally mathematically correct. The amount of the raise is the total amount of money already in the pot for this hand (live and dead money), plus the amount your call would be if there's a bet in front of you.

 

[fieldsy]

Aaaah, so you include your call just to calculate what the new/current pot is, but you cannot double the new pot. You just add it to your call.

Thanks!

Correct. You include it to determine the amount of the pot to establish the "pot limit" of your raise.

 

[fieldsy]

Also, do I reduce the starting stacks for PL games? Instead of 200bb for NLHE, do 100bb for PLO?

My answer is no. It's a big-bet game. I think that PLO tournaments generally play out more quickly than NL tournaments using a similar structure (not easy to compare apples-to-apples, because many NL tournaments use antes while PLO tournaments do not). Especially with experienced players, PLO naturally encourages action and tends to bust people out quickly. Although less-experienced players are more likely to limp and play passively.

As an aside, I personally am a fan of rebuys or reentry in PLO tournaments in particular. The equities run very close in PLO, and it's pretty common for the best hand preflop and on the flop to get drawn out on. The equivalent of a preflop "flip" in NLH generally happens on the flop in PLO, with something like top set or top two pair against a big combo draw. That's part of what makes the game fun, it's high-variance and action-inducing. It's really no fun to play PLO with a super nitty style because you can't rebuy.

 

[T_Chan]

Also, do I reduce the starting stacks for PL games? Instead of 200bb for NLHE, do 100bb for PLO?

No we do the opposite, bigger stacks for PLO. Pots get huge, you need to be deep stacked.

 

[ekricket]

No we do the opposite, bigger stacks for PLO. Pots get huge, you need to be deep stacked.

We typically do T20,000 or T25,000 for PLO, compared to T10,000 for NL.

You learn to control the size of the pot when you can, but there’s a lot of “pot motherfuckers” out there.

 

[BGinGA]

It's not uncommon to count the small blind as complete, which would make a the raise to 550 (3*150 + 50 + 50).

You didn't ask, but rounding up is helpful, too....

Both of these are covered in RROP (assumed-completion even acknowledged as being used some places for tournament play). An opening pot raise is always 4bb, and post-flop pots are rounded up to the next significant chip value for betting purposes. Much easier than trying to calculate using 1/2-bets and account for loose change.

 

[Beakertwang]

My answer is no. It's a big-bet game. I think that PLO tournaments generally play out more quickly than NL tournaments using a similar structure (not easy to compare apples-to-apples, because many NL tournaments use antes while PLO tournaments do not). Especially with experienced players, PLO naturally encourages action and tends to bust people out quickly. Although less-experienced players are more likely to limp and play passively.

As an aside, I personally am a fan of rebuys or reentry in PLO tournaments in particular. The equities run very close in PLO, and it's pretty common for the best hand preflop and on the flop to get drawn out on. The equivalent of a preflop "flip" in NLH generally happens on the flop in PLO, with something like top set or top two pair against a big combo draw. That's part of what makes the game fun, it's high-variance and action-inducing. It's really no fun to play PLO with a super nitty style because you can't rebuy.

No we do the opposite, bigger stacks for PLO. Pots get huge, you need to be deep stacked.

We typically do T20,000 or T25,000 for PLO, compared to T10,000 for NL.

You learn to control the size of the pot when you can, but there’s a lot of “pot motherfuckers” out there.

Only a couple of us have ever played any Omaha, so I have absolutely no idea how the game will play.

If we’re doing an 8-10 week league, I’d like to mix things up a bit, and introduce some new stuff.

 

[fieldsy]

Only a couple of us have ever played any Omaha, so I have absolutely no idea how the game will play.

If we’re doing an 8-10 week league, I’d like to mix things up a bit, and introduce some new stuff.

I love it. We did it similarly in my league starting a few years ago. Some players still really don't play any Omaha except for the 1-2 times per year we run it in the tournament, but they still seem to like it. And PLO can be a very expensive game to go and take your lumps in cash games, so cheaper tournaments can be a great intro to the game.

I'd be reluctant to play PLO/8 with completely inexperienced players, though. For one thing, the game is much slower as people try to figure out their hands, chop up pots, etc. But it's also common for people to misunderstand/misread their hands when they are learning Omaha, and if you add pot-limit to high-low it's a lot to take in. There's nothing more frustrating as a new player learning the game to lose a big pot not because your hand was worse, but because you genuinely didn't understand the rules correctly.