Tourney Blinds for a 25/50 Tournament (1 Viewer)

[TheArchitect]

Hello, What would you recommend as blinds for a tourney with starting blinds of 25/50 that will be played with T25 / T100 / T500 / T1000 / T5000? This is where i am at:

Blinds
25/50; 50/100; 75/150; 100/200; 150/300 (Note: increases are 1.5x previous except for the 1st increase)
-
Break to chip-up T25 - I have seen some recommendations that insert the break after 4 blind increases, but then you have to jump to 200/300 or 200/400 because there will be no more T25 to make it 150/300 after the break
-
200/400; 300/600; 400/800; 500/1000 (Note: 1.5x does not work for the jump from 150/300 or from 300/600 as T25 would be needed) Question: should the last increase be to 500/1000 or 600/1200? It seems that 500/1000 is a more natural denomination and easier in general.
-
Break - not sure if I can/should chip-up T100 as I only have 50 xT500, 750 x T1000 and 25 x T5000
-
800/1500 (or 800/1600? 750 SB does not work as no more T25); 1000/2000; 1500/3000; 2000/4000 - The first blinds after the 2nd break are required to avoid a 2x jump to 1000/2000; but what should they be? I think it would be odd to use something like 800/1600 and continue 1.5x at 1200/2400 and so on as we end up in blinds a little more complicated than last 3 indicated. It's the same reason not to continue with 600/1200; 900/1800... It seems cleaner to go 500/1000; 800/1500; 1000/2000; 1500/3000; 2000/4000. I'm sure the game will end before we get to the last blinds, but it just seems easier/natural for the math and chips in play.

Any comments?

 

[cwebb]

Too slow. Drop some levels beginning with 150/300 but lengthen the levels. This makes for smoother game play and fewer questions of "what are the blinds again?"

Keep chips in play a level longer.

 

[Daddy N]

Here is what I do for a 10k tourney

Small Blind/Big Blind 20 Minute Levels
Level 1- Happy Hour
Level 2- 25/50
Level 3- 50/100
Break
Level 4- 75/150
Level 5- 125/250
Break Remove T25 Chips
Last Chance to Rebuy/Addon
Level 6- 200/400
Level 7- 300/600
Break
Level 8- 500/1,000
Level 9- 800/1,600
Level 10- 1,200/2,400
Break Remove T100 & T500 Chips
Level 11- 2,000/4,000 (Usually ends around here)
Level 12- 3,000/6000
Level 13- 5,000/10,000

 

[JustinInMN]

I am sure you will get comments on the jump from 25-50 to 50-100 as a double being too fast.

You could throw a 50-75 in between to make that a little smoother. The 1-2 small blind to big blind ratio is really a guideline, not written in stone.

Personally I just like doing multiples of 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 of the lowest chip in play and remove accordingly.

Smooth structure this way, start from any of the first four levels depending on how many big blinds you want T10k to represent on level one.

25-25 (400 bb), 25-50 (200 bb), 50-75 (133 bb), 50-100 (100 bb), 75-150, 100-200, 150-300, remove T25

200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 800-1600, remove T100

1000-2000, 1500-3000, remove T500

2k-4k, 3k-6k, 4k-8k, 6k-12k, 8k-16k, remove T1k

Simple, clean, no doubles, clear points of removal for every denomination.

 

[TheArchitect]

That's quite clean and simple. I probably wouldn't start with 25-25, but it's nice to consider it as an option.

 

[ChaosRock]

My structure for up to 2-table, with a 10K Starting stack, although more often than not I use a 20K starting stacks with 50/100 first level and 75/150 second level. One can also just skip the 25/75 but there will be a 100% increase in blinds, which I do not prefer.

 

[TheArchitect]

Nice!

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

My structure for up to 2-table, with a 10K Starting stack, although more often than not I use a 20K starting stacks with 50/100 first level and 75/150 second level. One can also just skip the 25/75 but there will be a 100% increase in blinds, which I do not prefer.

View attachment 243817

This^^ except I tend towards leaving the 500s on the table until the time shown for the 1000s, and don't take the 1000s off at all. This allows for continuing with smooth blind increases (instead of 5k/10k, go to 6k/12k, then 8k/16k, etc.) Odds are you prob won't see these levels in a smaller tourney.

 

[MattyMatt]

What's the actual practical problem with going from 25/50 to 50/100, if you don't mind me asking?

Seems to me it's no big deal. People are going to be playing for 3-4 hours in a friendly home tourney (in my case) and there are rebuys etc... So... what problem does 25/75 solve?

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

What's the actual practical problem with going from 25/50 to 50/100, if you don't mind me asking?

Seems to me it's no big deal. People are going to be playing for 3-4 hours in a friendly home tourney (in my case) and there are rebuys etc... So... what problem does 25/75 solve?

My 2¢ on a 2x blind jump:
Over the course of a tournament, one should measure their stack size based on # of BB. The goal is to counteract/slow the effect of increasing blinds by accumulating chips. For most home game tourneys using 15-30 minute levels, a comfortable rate of increase is 1.25-1.5x. By using a 2x increase, the effect of increasing blinds tends to outweigh the effect of skillfully amassing chips. All that jazz being said, at the beginning of most tournaments, this issue is not going to have such a large effect. One way I've also seen this issue minimized is to lengthen first level. This also accounts for lost time due to late arrivals, etc.

If need of chips is not an issue, I far prefer just doubling starting stack and starting at 50/100.

 

[TheArchitect]

On my side, I see no problem with the blind increase from 25/50 to 50/100 an I'll probably keep that and integrate the other increases suggested.

 

[ChaosRock]

What's the actual practical problem with going from 25/50 to 50/100, if you don't mind me asking?

Seems to me it's no big deal. People are going to be playing for 3-4 hours in a friendly home tourney (in my case) and there are rebuys etc... So... what problem does 25/75 solve?

I can give you my perspective but others might have a different view.

One usually measures how deep a tourney is by the number of BB in their starting stack. If just after one level you have half of that amount, it really is misleading in terms of staring BB (not really, but you know what I mean). That is very accentuated when the starting stacks are shallow already, less that 100BB. So let's say one starts at 80BB, after 20 mins, the average is already down to 40BB and approaching situations of shove when around 30 to 20BB. If the starting stacks are deeper, one can get away with 100% jump after first level since there's a lot of BB in play. From a smooth slope perspective, the tourney runs smoother with jumps of less that 50% increase imo, i.e. your situation BB wouldn't change dramatically from level to level.

As I said, my prefer structure is 20K SS (at least) with a starting level of 50/100, so there is no need to use blinds that are not 2x, like 25/75 (which is not a problem btw. SO I go 50/100 to 75/150.

 

[TheArchitect]

If you increase blinds to 50/100, do you change your chip values to match the small blind with T50 as the smallest unit or do you keep T25? With T50, 4x or 5x brings the denominations to T50, T200, T1000, T5000 and T20 000 as the largest denom.

 

[TheArchitect]

The starting stacks will be a minimum of 100BB, so SS of 5000 for 25/50

 

[TheArchitect]

Most sets will include the following as standard chip values: T1, T5, T10, T25, T50, T100, T500, T1000, T5000 which is why I ask about changing the chip values for 50/100 starting blinds. I get the feeling that I would have to use T50, T100, T500, T1000, T5000 and find a set that also has T10 000 or T25 000 to make a tournament work with starting blinds of 50/100 with deep stacks which would mean a set of chips with 6 or 7 different denominations. That seems like a lot. Otherwise I will need a blank set with 5 different colors.

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

If you increase blinds to 50/100, do you change your chip values to match the small blind with T50 as the smallest unit or do you keep T25? With T50, 4x or 5x brings the denominations to T50, T200, T1000, T5000 and T20 000 as the largest denom.

The whole point of starting 50/100 is to allow 75/150, so no, do not go with 50s, stick with 25s.

 

[BGinGA]

Most sets will include the following as standard chip values: T1, T5, T10, T25, T50, T100, T500, T1000, T5000 which is why I ask about changing the chip values for 50/100 starting blinds. I get the feeling that I would have to use T50, T100, T500, T1000, T5000 and find a set that also has T10 000 or T25 000 to make a tournament work with starting blinds of 50/100 with deep stacks which would mean a set of chips with 6 or 7 different denominations. That seems like a lot. Otherwise I will need a blank set with 5 different colors.

No, not at all. There is no good reason to create a set using denominations that are 2x apart (like T50 and T100 in your example).

 

[TheArchitect]

I know that the 2x apart should not be used for the chip values, but I thought the rule of thumb was that the smallest value should be equal to the SB. it makes sense to continue with T25, T100, T500, T1000, T5000. I don't see how one can avoid the 2x jump from T500 to T1000 as all standard sets leave you no choice.

 

[BGinGA]

I know that the 2x apart should not be used for the chip values, but I thought the rule of thumb was that the smallest value should be equal to the SB.

Not necessarily. Nothing wrong with starting blinds of 50/100 using T25 chips, if it fits the specific needs and requirements of the event. Same with 10/20 starting blinds if using a T5-base set.

I don't see how one can avoid the 2x jump from T500 to T1000

T25 - T100 - T500 - T2000 - T10000 works great for deep stacks and/or large fields. Perhaps @ChaosRock will provide additional insight and pr0n.

 

[MattyMatt]

Over the course of a tournament, one should measure their stack size based on # of BB. The goal is to counteract/slow the effect of increasing blinds by accumulating chips. For most home game tourneys using 15-30 minute levels, a comfortable rate of increase is 1.25-1.5x. By using a 2x increase, the effect of increasing blinds tends to outweigh the effect of skillfully amassing chips. All that jazz being said, at the beginning of most tournaments, this issue is not going to have such a large effect. One way I've also seen this issue minimized is to lengthen first level. This also accounts for lost time due to late arrivals, etc.

I understand the thinking, I just think that it seems like pretty much a non issue since it applies equally to all players, all players are aware of it, and it happens only once at the vercond y beginning of the tournament.

(I'm speaking home games etc now, not 'professional' poker)

If need of chips is not an issue, I far prefer just doubling starting stack and starting at 50/100.

I think you illustrate something interesting though, which is that it wasn't stated if this was to be a tourney with a starting stack of T5000 or T10k or more. So to me it again is a bit odd that the assumption is that doubling the second blind level is a problem if the stack size relative to BB at the first few levels is the issue. Because without knowing the starting stack size we don't know if the issue is there to begin with.

Another way of looking at it is that you can play a T10k with 50/100 except you add an extra blind level before that at 25/50. With that 'opposite' perspective, how does the 25/50 hurt? And if it doesn't, where is the line drawn as far as starting stack size relative to the first BB?

 

[TheArchitect]

I can see the interest of going with that, except I have yet to find the ever elusive T2000 chip in a standard set. I'd have to go custom or blanks (with five colors, nobody will remember the values). Anyone know of any sets with a $2K chip? At some point, theory meets reality and interrupts the 4x 5x rule.

 

[MattyMatt]

From a smooth slope perspective, the tourney runs smoother with jumps of less that 50% increase imo, i.e. your situation BB wouldn't change dramatically from level to level.

I don't disagree with that at all. My only question is regarding that very first second when starting at 25/50. It would seem, as I mentioned above, that as long as people understand what the deal is and as long as the starting stack is big enough there should be not much of an issue.

At our games that have been tournaments, where others have hosted, 25/50 has always been the first level followed by 50/100. Starting stacks have been anything from T5k to T20k. The "short stacked" tournaments were intended to be turbos, two in one evening. I pretty much hate that type of tournament (unless I'm winning it) but it worked 'as intended'. For the longer ones it really didn't seem that the jump was an issue.

 

[TheArchitect]

MattyMatt, you bring up a good point...I thought I had put that up there at the beginning! The starting stack was to be 5000 so 100 x BB with starting blinds of 25/50. The stacks could also be doubled to be deeper so 10 000 for 200 x BB for starting blinds of 25/50. I also may have been naive in thinking the 25/50 start blinds are standard as that is what the WSOP tourneys often start at with starting stacks of 9000.

 

[TheArchitect]

So I can see that SS 5000 with blinds at 25/50 going to 50/100 will end up playing like a "Turbo" and that moving to a SS of 10K will lessen the impact of this initial 2x blind jump.

All this was to evaluate how many chips to buy and in what denominations. As much as I would like to get what people at PCF consider enjoyable chips worth owning/collecting (ceramics like Tiki & Dia de los Muertos, CPC, Apache Elite or Monaco, Paulson,...), I think that would force me to limit the set to 300 as opposed to getting the 500 chips I probably need to start in order to avoid only being able to play Turbo games. So the set will most likely be 500 chips broken down as follows (multiples of 25 as online retail sellers in Canada sell in rolls of 25) and starting stacks at 10K will be 12/12/5/6 for 10 players :

T25 x 125
T100 x 125
T500 x 100
T1000 x 100
T5000 x 50

The stacks can also be bumped up to 20K with this set. What has your experience been in terms of quantity of chips and breakdown in playing tournaments style home games starting at either 25/50 and 50/100 based off a starting chip value of T25? I know I didn't mention rebuys, we'll adjust according to the number of players. I will not be hosting multi-table, just games with close friends from 6 to 10 players.

Thanks to all for the your input!

 

[allforcharity]

Why must you have 12/12/5/6 (35 chip stack per player) when you can do the same with 8/8/4/7 (27 chip stack per player)? More efficient = less chips = less cost.

 

[Azcat]

I've attached a structure we have used a few times that I think works great.

Distribution is T25 X 8, T100 X 8, T500 X 8 & T1,000 X 5.

 

[Trihonda]

Here's my go to structure:

Starting Stacks
T15,000 in chips
(12 x 25 / 12 x 100 / 5 x 500 / 6 x1,000 / 1 x 5k)
Easily make this a 10K structure by ditching the 5k chip in the starting stack.

Blind Levels
20 Minutes

Blind Schedule
25 / 50
50 / 100
75 / 150
100 / 200
150 / 300
10 Minute Break (Color-Up T25’s)
200 / 400
300 / 600
400 / 800
600 / 1,200
800 / 1,600
60 Minute Dinner Break (Color-Up T100’s)
1,000 / 2,000
1,500 / 3,000
2,000 / 4,000
3,000 / 6,000
4,000 / 8,000
6,000 / 12,000
8,000 / 16,000
10,000 / 20,000

 

[TheArchitect]

Thanks, Azcat! Nice and useful PDF! Thanks Trihonda. I had been looking at being more efficient with chips using 8/8/4/7, but then I read some good posts with arguments for 12/12/5/6. All of these are probably fine including 8/8/8/5. However it's hard to decide which will work out best until I've put them into play, and I feel that limiting the set to 300 would remove some of the starting stack options whereas a 500 set would allow experimentation. I also looked at 400 chip breakdowns, but it comes to what is readily available and convenient. I don't want to purchase a case from one place, chips at another, then decide I need more and have to store chips in a 300 case and acrylic racks. I would need someone to confirm that a 300 set would work for this criteria: 10 people, SS 10K for blinds 25/50 with chip values of T25/100/500/1000/5000 and 8/8/4/7 or 8/8/8/5 stacks to start and blind structures as per above posts. Otherwise I'll go with 500.

 

[Outkicked]

Depending on how long you want the tournament to be, blinds at either 20, 25 or 30 min long starting stacks at 8k, 10k, 12k or 15k

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
10 min break race off $25 chips
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
10min break & end of rebuys/late reg
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1200/2400
20 min break to eat and race off $100 chips
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
Break etc....

 

[JustinInMN]

Why must you have 12/12/5/6 (35 chip stack per player) when you can do the same with 8/8/4/7 (27 chip stack per player)? More efficient = less chips = less cost.

12/12/5/6 is moar chips per player, less change making, you have heard it all before.

But planning 12/12/5/6 stacks also builds in the option of doing 8/8/4/7 on the off chance one needs to host a bigger field.