Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
Damn...3x pot! We can fold a lot in this spot. I call so that the PCF thread doesn’t leave everyone blue balled, but I’m not happy about it
At The Wynn $1/$3 - KJs (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter ChaosRock
- Start date
OP
OP
bivey
Full House
I’ve also made this push hoping that second level think gets me a call holding the mortal nuts.It’s not my money so you have to call.
That’s an odd bet. I’ll admit I’ve made similar plays with draws to push someone off a hand. Actually thinking you’re good because he has something like 99 or 88. Have you tables odd holdings like 78? But I really think he just wants you out of the hand. His line leans towards a middle pair and he just doesn’t want to see any paint on the river.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
Alright already...spill it, Bubbs.
bivey
Full House
Patience. This ain’t New York!
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Just coming across this thread. I'm fine with you opening the KJ suited there, but against an OMC and being OOP and getting raised on the flop I generally range them stronger on having a made hand that is worried about the draws the flop brings, so would assume we're behind and just let it go (again, this is player dependent)
As played, on the turn that's also a fold from me. You can't win every pot Paulo!
As played, on the turn that's also a fold from me. You can't win every pot Paulo!
OP
OP
It seems no one is advocating a call here. No wonder...
I hold
mid position. Raise to $15, Villain calls on the button. Flop comes 
. I lead for $23, Villain makes it $80 and Hero calls. Pot $194. Turn is sort of favorable 
, making it . $600-ish effective behind. I checked and Villain shoves $600 into a $200 pot. Hero tanks for a while and FOLDS.
Based on the EV numbers for Hero's shove, now, without Villain's fold equity, I don't think a call makes much sense. It really hurts folding a hand after gaining the turn equity but calling a 3x pot bet here seemed to me at the time a little ambitious. So i cut my losses at $95 and cards to the muck.
That hand hunted me for quite a while. If it had gone more straight forwardly, like Villain betting $150 on the turn, Hero calls and then sort of normal action on the river depending of the card, the hand would have gone to the mundane hand pile. What got me what the 3x pot bet. As I said, I had never faced a turn bet like that in cash. maybe it's more common than I think but it surprised me.
Also, if that bet was coming from a young European kid, I wouldn't have been shocked. Maybe he worked out a balanced strategy for it and he's been working on bet sizing for a while. Coming from OMD (my 2-second read) it didn't make much sense to me and it really smelt like value hands that didn't want to get draw on. I understand for small stakes the need to being balanced is diminished but still, is Villain more heavily on value or on bluffs in that spot?
To Derek's point, If I'm on Villains position, I try to get value from my sets there. So I'd bet reasonably. Same bet size when I'm semi-bluffing. maybe I need to throw poker theory out the window and just size my bets unbalanced to exploit?
James asked me about the number of players on the table to judge the opening in mid position. Honestly, I don't recall. The Wynn tables all have a waiting list all through out summer during the series so the table was full (9). Now, if we had one of two players off the table I don't recall but it is totally possible.
Any more thoughts on the 3x pot bet?
Maybe not Anthony... But I'll fight tooth and nail for all of them!
I hold
mid position. Raise to $15, Villain calls on the button. Flop comes . I lead for $23, Villain makes it $80 and Hero calls. Pot $194. Turn is sort of favorable , making it . $600-ish effective behind. I checked and Villain shoves $600 into a $200 pot. Hero tanks for a while and FOLDS.Based on the EV numbers for Hero's shove, now, without Villain's fold equity, I don't think a call makes much sense. It really hurts folding a hand after gaining the turn equity but calling a 3x pot bet here seemed to me at the time a little ambitious. So i cut my losses at $95 and cards to the muck.
That hand hunted me for quite a while. If it had gone more straight forwardly, like Villain betting $150 on the turn, Hero calls and then sort of normal action on the river depending of the card, the hand would have gone to the mundane hand pile. What got me what the 3x pot bet. As I said, I had never faced a turn bet like that in cash. maybe it's more common than I think but it surprised me.
Also, if that bet was coming from a young European kid, I wouldn't have been shocked. Maybe he worked out a balanced strategy for it and he's been working on bet sizing for a while. Coming from OMD (my 2-second read) it didn't make much sense to me and it really smelt like value hands that didn't want to get draw on. I understand for small stakes the need to being balanced is diminished but still, is Villain more heavily on value or on bluffs in that spot?
To Derek's point, If I'm on Villains position, I try to get value from my sets there. So I'd bet reasonably. Same bet size when I'm semi-bluffing. maybe I need to throw poker theory out the window and just size my bets unbalanced to exploit?
James asked me about the number of players on the table to judge the
opening in mid position. Honestly, I don't recall. The Wynn tables all have a waiting list all through out summer during the series so the table was full (9). Now, if we had one of two players off the table I don't recall but it is totally possible.Any more thoughts on the 3x pot bet?
You can't win every pot Paulo!
Maybe not Anthony... But I'll fight tooth and nail for all of them!
ilovegravy
Pair
I can't remember if I said this elsewhere in the thread, but it reeks of a "get out of my pot" type bet. With an older guy as you described, maybe 1 in 10 times this is a shove he makes because he's drawing and he puts you on top pair. But most of the time, this is a sigh and a fold. I think you made the right decision. It's a damn shame villain didn't show his hand after.
I agree. I bet the guy was ahead. It’s still a really stupid overbet. But you just have to shake your head and fold and wait for the next hand.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I can't wait to 3x pot shove against Paulo at the next meetup and force the fold!
ilovegravy
Pair
Now now, he's gonna have to call to balance his 3x calling range.
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Have the balls?!?!?
If Jenn gives me them back, she keeps them in her purse
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
That’s a good way to stay out of trouble I have found.
bivey
Full House
I’ve tried it, it doesn’t work.
derekdd23
Flush
It seems no one is advocating a call here. No wonder...
I hold
Based on the EV numbers for Hero's shove, now, without Villain's fold equity, I don't think a call makes much sense. It really hurts folding a hand after gaining the turn equity but calling a 3x pot bet here seemed to me at the time a little ambitious. So i cut my losses at $95 and cards to the muck.
That hand hunted me for quite a while. If it had gone more straight forwardly, like Villain betting $150 on the turn, Hero calls and then sort of normal action on the river depending of the card, the hand would have gone to the mundane hand pile. What got me what the 3x pot bet. As I said, I had never faced a turn bet like that in cash. maybe it's more common than I think but it surprised me.
Also, if that bet was coming from a young European kid, I wouldn't have been shocked. Maybe he worked out a balanced strategy for it and he's been working on bet sizing for a while. Coming from OMD (my 2-second read) it didn't make much sense to me and it really smelt like value hands that didn't want to get draw on. I understand for small stakes the need to being balanced is diminished but still, is Villain more heavily on value or on bluffs in that spot?
To Derek's point, If I'm on Villains position, I try to get value from my sets there. So I'd bet reasonably. Same bet size when I'm semi-bluffing. maybe I need to throw poker theory out the window and just size my bets unbalanced to exploit?
James asked me about the number of players on the table to judge the
Any more thoughts on the 3x pot bet?
Maybe not Anthony... But I'll fight tooth and nail for all of them!
In games with people i never play against i play exploitably, there is no need for balance when you are only playing with that person for a few hours. Balance is only useful after days or weeks of play with the same people, or online where people track everything.
I have almost never seen an old guy bluff in this spot, it is almost always an overreaction to not wanted to get sucked out on with sets and top 2. In my experience the bluff frequency is far too low to ever call. Also you need to get bluffed sometimes or you are calling too much. Why agonize over very marginal situations when they just give it away most of the time.
I’m always impressed by these well thought out analyses. Thanks, I love reading them and learn something.
Reading them, I realize I’m a caveman poker player. Grunt a lot, throw things (usually chips into the pot) and love eating burnt meat at meetups.
Reading them, I realize I’m a caveman poker player. Grunt a lot, throw things (usually chips into the pot) and love eating burnt meat at meetups.
OP
OP
I understand what you're saying Derek, and it boils down to being easier to play exploitatively at lower stakes than higher stakes, which I agree.
However, leaving a balanced strategy behind and playing purely exploitatively leave you susceptible to being exploited. On a table full of unknown players, there might be players that can exploit even better than you can. The condition that makes playing exploitatively the way to go is if you're super confident you are the best player at the table.
I like always to start trying my best to stick to balance and poker fundamentals myself (I'm talking about casino play, meet-ups are for gambol! LOL). As I start getting better reads, then I might deviate a little here and there. Am I giving up some value? Probably. But I am also protecting myself from players like yourself who would exploit me to death! LOL!!!!
I agree. Some of the spots in the hand (IMO) were marginal, like the pre-flop open and the flop raise call. And the fold to the turn shove is probably a clear cut fold to this particular Villain. However, what I found interesting about this hand was the concept of a 3x pot shove. Questions like: is this a good move if balanced? Who would do it? Can I incorporate it in my game? What are other player's reaction to a shove like that? And other similar questions...
Another interesting point was the suggestion of leading (and even shoving) the turn... A play that didn't cross my mind at the time. Just like you, I pretty much never lead on a raise/call pot.
Regardless, it is awesome to have you guys around to discuss those things. As I said, I am very thankful for all the comments guys, they help me a lot!
OP
OP
Well, you got my number brother. I should start avoiding playing pots against you Jeff...
I too enjoyed the thread. It made me realize (again) about all the things I don't think about whilst playing poker. One of the beautiful things about games like poker and golf, there is always room to elevate your game.
derekdd23
Flush
The eternal balance debate, im sure we could discuss this for hours. You will probably notice how balanced I tend to play against someone like you vs someone i dont think is very good. My exploitive play is usually pretty well targeted as is my balanced approach. This simple game is so complex I never get tired of talking about it.
Kain8
Flush
@ChaosRock
Good discussion, thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's take.
If you haven't read it, Ed Miller's poker book, The Course, is a great base that I use now to avoid sticky situations like the one you've found yourself here.
Good discussion, thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's take.
If you haven't read it, Ed Miller's poker book, The Course, is a great base that I use now to avoid sticky situations like the one you've found yourself here.
HanShot1st
Two Pair
Interestingly enough I caught an “old man” bluffing on the river twice yesterday. Not overbets but large bets none the less. Of three pots, I called him twice, first one I called and won a nice large pot. Second I had top pair top kicker (JA no spade) until the river...which was a K, the spade flush came on the turn, and I just could not call his $100 bet on the river. I believe at that point all I have is a bluff catcher. The third hand his $50 bet on the river was way too small for the size of the pot. I had JJ and the board ran out all under cards. Was an easy call, and scoop.
But calling a 3x bet there? Pfft... it’s better to save your $$ and get it in with him in a much better position. You’ll make more in the end, and you’ll spend less getting there.
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Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
I was watching Live at the Bike last night. It was the big game $100/$200 blinds.
Tight player bluffs for 2.5x the size of the pot all in on the river with A8 on a 65424 board and gets called by A6! Total pot ended up being over $50k!!!
The commentators freaked out when the call was made.
Tight player bluffs for 2.5x the size of the pot all in on the river with A8 on a 65424 board and gets called by A6! Total pot ended up being over $50k!!!
The commentators freaked out when the call was made.
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