Was this a punt? (1 Viewer)

[aurumity]

Had a rollercoaster of a session last night at my local card club here in Texas. Typical $1/3 uncapped game, extremely deep. Before this hand I had ~$410. There were also a few other stacks with well over $1000 at the table. Main villain was sitting somewhere between 1.5k - 2k. This happened about 4 hours into my 10 hour session, so I had a pretty good read on most of the players at the table.

I am UTG with and open to $15 (standard open at this table)

I get 2 additional callers to the flop, nobody 3-bets and both SB & BB fold.

Flop comes:

I'm first to act and c-bet for $20

HJ folds
Button (villian) raises me to $150

I tank for around 30-60 seconds and end up pushing all in. Villain snap calls.

I table my hand and villain tables so i am behind at this point.

Turn & River are inconsequential (I forget what exactly) and Villain holds.

Here are my thoughts as I'm running through it. Villain plays most hands and literally every hand on the button unless facing a huge PFR. Also, Villain will 3-bet/4-bet with premiums & middling-premiums, AA-JJ-AK-AJ & saw her do it once with KJs. If she doesn't have a good hand, she'll normally just flat call if nobody else puts in a raise.

I have the 2nd nut flush draw alongside top pair & 2nd kicker. I block AK, AQ and obviously block AdKd, AdQd. I am ahead of AdJd, AdXd, most Qx holdings, any Kx holding, straight draws, etc. Also, if I flat this $150 raise, I will be pot committed and more than likely would call the turn either way.

Personally, I put her on QJo or Q10o with a backdoor straight draw possibility. I knew that she likes to raise when she gets any decent portion of the board and very rarely ever bluffs. Also she will chase for a good price. Looking back at it I definitely wish I slowed down and thought about the possibility of her having Q3 or Q9, since it was definitely within her range.

With this in mind, can I really ever fold here?

Thanks for any advice. I've only been playing for about 5 months now and I'm trying to improve. I surprisingly have a decent profit margin of 200BBs but still have a lot of room for improvement. There has been around 2-3 times where I have blown up a large stack. Luckily last night I was able to recuperate losses and ended up +$75 on the night.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Definitly not a punt. It was going all in anyway.

 

[kmccormick100]

~135bbs deep this is all going in, against a standard range you have a ton of equity. Unless you know the villain to be doing this only with 2pair+ it's a pretty standard all-in. If you're sitting actually deep, like 200-300bb effective it becomes a bit trickier to navigate, but I'm always happy to get the money in here.

If it matters, you got the money in as a slight favorite.

 

[aurumity]

~135bbs deep this is all going in, against a standard range you have a ton of equity. Unless you know the villain to be doing this only with 2pair+ it's a pretty standard all-in. If you're sitting actually deep, like 200-300bb effective it becomes a bit trickier to navigate, but I'm always happy to get the money in here.

If it matters, you got the money in as a slight favorite.
View attachment 1222821

Oh interesting. I figured I only had around 40% equity.

 

[JMC9389]

Not a punt. Donkeys get lucky once in a while. I'd call this down all three streets post flop and would elect not to shove from the get go on the first reraise, but the result would have been the same regardless.

 

[theshepherd]

Agreed, its a tough beat but your play wasn't the issue here, the cards were.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Probably not a punt.

Would only really be a punt if she's an ABC type of player who leans very passive, i.e., probably wouldn't get pot-committed like this without a set.

But we know she doesn't fit that bill because we just saw her cold-call with Q3o and go for stacks with top and bottom pair. Even if this is the bottom of her range, your king is often going to be live on top of your flush draw (and sometimes on top of nines too), and we saw the numbers on that:

With players like this, you kinda have to go for it with a lot of hands like this because they're in there with such a random assortment of hands, many of which remain vulnerable to better openers even when they smash the flop.

This is all assuming you knew she's this kind of player going into the hand. If she's new to you, it's still not the worst play in the world, but you're up against a tighter pool of hands that are on average harder to beat.

 

[Legend5555]

The SPR is such that jamming can't be bad, especially if you think villain will call with worse. He won't be able to fold for just 240 more into a pot of almost 600. Jam now or call off on any turn are basically the same here.

What's more interesting to think about is what if you were 1k deep? At that point you have a much better argument for just calling and keeping all their bluffs in. When you block TP and strong flush draws, then your opponent's value range is more weighted to two pair and sets.

 

[PlaidDragon]

I am UTG with and open to $15 (standard open at this table)

I get 2 additional callers to the flop, nobody 3-bets and both SB & BB fold.

Flop comes:

I'm first to act and c-bet for $20

HJ folds
Button (villian) raises me to $150

I tank for around 30-60 seconds and end up pushing all in. Villain snap calls.

I table my hand and villain tables so i am behind at this point.

Turn & River are inconsequential (I forget what exactly) and Villain holds.

Not a punt.

When hands like Q3o call 5x raises pre-flop you're going to profit hard in the long run.

Even then, you still had slightly better equity post-flop.

Bad luck.

 

[BonScot]

With the villain re-raising I’d be thinking that she’s got a set or maybe AQ. No way Q3o is even entering my thoughts

Against someone like that you’ll make money in the long run. You just ran into some bad luck.

 

[aurumity]

Got another punt examination request. I don't want to bloat the forum with new topics since this one is kinda relevant.

This hand is against the same Villain as the one in the post ahead. Unlike the hand above, I was pretty much dead on the flop/turn and need to know whether or not I am thinking about the right things.

1/3 - $400 eff

Hero: BB
Main Villain: SB - Around $800 behind

I am dealt

UTG+1, HJ and SB limp over to me. I check and we're 4 ways to the flop with $12 in the pot.

Flop comes:

SB checks. I check
UTG+1 bets out $10
HJ folds
SB calls & I call
Turn is the

SB checks. I check.
UTG+1 bets out $40
Small blind 3-bets to $140

I'll get more into my thoughts on the river, but I end up tank calling after about 45 seconds.
UTG+1 folds

Turn is a complete brick.

Board is now

SB puts me all in

I tank again for around 1 minute and a half. Here's what I'm thinking. First off, it's blind on blind action and the chances of us both having clubs are pretty slim. Also, there are high clubs already accounted for. Secondly, she did not raise preflop. I was utterly shocked by her not raising preflop with 3 limpers behind her, based on how loose she plays (she's not entirely crazy though). Thirdly, the bet sizing on the turn really threw me off at the time. I kept asking myself why she would raise that high. It felt like a two pair hand trying to protect against a flush or a straight draw. I have a bit of history with this player and as the post above shows, she will play with practically any Qx or Kx hand if she can get in for cheap. So I wrongly assumed she had a Qx Kx type of hand. Lastly, I assumed if she had the nut flush, she would try to play slower and trap.

I end up calling and she flips over the soul crushing

After some analysis on the drive home after being stacked for the 2nd time that night, I realized that I failed to take into account her flop action. If she had two pair, such as Q7o and was trying to protect herself from the flush draw, why didn't she check raise or bet out on the flop? Thinking back on it, it definitely seems like she was on some sort of draw and wanted to realize her equity before betting out. Perhaps she also didn't want to be the PFR OOP with A7s, which is another thing I did not think about.

I think this hand is a bit more interesting than the last hand I posted, so I'm very curious to see what you guys think.

 

[CHP TD]

This one just sucks. this crap IS going to happen BUT GOD BLESS them for doing crap like this. People like this make Poker profitable. Just sucks when it goes against u.


Geoff

 

[RocAFella1]

Almost @quintooo almost.
@TheRealTeddyKGB

 

[springbox]

This is the danger of low suited hands, especially in unraised pots with multiple players. You could almost consider folding the flop, knowing that you only make a hand with another club, and even then risk getting stacked by a higher flush, although that might be just too nitty. Also worth noting in the first hand when she raised and called she had 2pair on a 2 flush board. Many players will make moves on 2 flush boards for 'protection' but will shut that down once there's 3 of a suit out there and just try to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

Texas games are time raked or pot raked? If time raked, I'd consider limping A7s from the SB after two limps. Probably not generating many folds with a bet, and it's not a hand I'd love to play OOP.

 

[aurumity]

This is the danger of low suited hands, especially in unraised pots with multiple players. You could almost consider folding the flop, knowing that you only make a hand with another club, and even then risk getting stacked by a higher flush, although that might be just too nitty. Also worth noting in the first hand when she raised and called she had 2pair on a 2 flush board. Many players will make moves on 2 flush boards for 'protection' but will shut that down once there's 3 of a suit out there and just try to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

Texas games are time raked or pot raked? If time raked, I'd consider limping A7s from the SB after two limps. Probably not generating many folds with a bet, and it's not a hand I'd love to play OOP.

Yeah I definitely think you're right. Especially that last sentence in the first paragraph. I saw that a few times tonight. Texas games are time raked. At this particular club it is $10 per hour

 

[Legend5555]

In an unraised pot with two players showing interest when the flush completes, I think this is a pretty easy fold. Is anyone really raising here in a limped pot multiway with worse than a flush after they just call the flop? I think J9 and AJ just call. Two pair and 77 raise flop more often than they just call. Yes, most of the big clubs are accounted for, but there are still all the suited connecters and 1 gappers 57 up to T9, plus EVERY suited Ace.

 

[aurumity]

In an unraised pot with two players showing interest when the flush completes, I think this is a pretty easy fold. Is anyone really raising here in a limped pot multiway with worse than a flush after they just call the flop? I think J9 and AJ just call. Two pair and 77 raise flop more often than they just call. Yes, most of the big clubs are accounted for, but there are still all the suited connecters and 1 gappers 57 up to T9, plus EVERY suited Ace.

Good point

 

[dmoney]

I consider “punts” one of:

• Horrible mismanagement of a spot deep in a tournament (like going broke doing something dumb on the bubble)
• Awful hand/player selection - running a bad bluff against a known calling station, getting needlessly out of line with a no pair/no draw hand

Getting it in with 30-60% equity in certain spots is rarely a straightforward punt, imo.

 

[aurumity]

So this thread has kind of been my personal monologue on my journey as a newer poker player. Officially been in a huge downswing for the past two months or so. Last hand-breakdown included, I'm at 6 losing sessions in a row. Not to be dramatic - but today kind of broke me, which is why I am here again lol. Dusted off another 3 buy-ins and am currently at the depth of my comfortable bankroll. Anyways, I end up having a free day to hang around Austin, TX and decide to play at the Lodge. I wish I had this day about a day later so I could try out the poker house @Anthony Martino but I don't foresee myself going back. The table wasn't bad. Around 2-3 players were very good from my perspective. One player would never 3! or raise until the river with the nuts (legit saw this two or three times) and a couple of action players.

Highlight of the day comes from one of the action players.

1/2 at the lodge - $400 deep, villain is around $380 deep.

I wake up to a beauty about an hour and a half into the session

I believe I was either UTG +1 or +2

I raise it up to $10

Folds around to Villain in the CO

Villain 3! to $40 (could of also been $60 but I forget)

I flat call

Flop comes

Even though I just flatted his PFR, I decided to put out a $25 C-Bet because I thought he had an Ace with a higher kicker.

He snap jams.

I snap call and villain flips over . Personally I wasn't really afraid of aces or queens. Figured that the board wasn't wet enough for him to feel like he had to defend his set that hard. Also he did the same exact thing with AKo earlier.

runout comes and villain makes a straight.

Honestly I sit there in disbelief for a moment before rebuying, but damn man. This one really stung for some reason. I don't think I ever push him off of that hand, but would you guys 4! this pre-flop? Or what would you do on the flop, first to act? Sorry if I come off as whining. Just need to vent a little bit lol. I've also just really been appreciating the feedback I've been getting here.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Marginal but reasonable call preflop.

Flop plays itself. The tiny bet is a little weird, but result is probably the same as you leading half pot or more. Unless Vilain is the nittiest rock on earth, I'm getting my money in here all day.

 

[springbox]

Definitely not 4! there with AQs. If you raise full ring UTG +1 you're repping a strong range (AJo+, KQs+,99+). If someone 3! you they're also repping a very strong range. 4! with a hand like AQs in this spot is essentially bluffing at that point, but if you're going to 4! bluff it should be with worse hands. Not sure I love the donk bet, but it's hard for you not to go broke with this hand. If you're not all-in on the flop, you're probably all in by the turn. If it somehow got to the river you could probably get away from it then, but the pot odds might be so bad by that point you make a crying call.

 

[lane_robert_s]

I would have done the same thing.

 

[loosechange101]

Read through all 3 of your posts and there's nothing really that obvious in there - at least coming from the perspective of another amateur player. If there are things to improve on, they are quite complex. I think you're playing just fine and sometimes you get sucked out on. Keep your chin up, poker is a long haul kind of game if you want to make consistent money - and its not easy.

 

[Frogzilla]

So this thread has kind of been my personal monologue on my journey as a newer poker player. Officially been in a huge downswing for the past two months or so. Last hand-breakdown included, I'm at 6 losing sessions in a row. Not to be dramatic - but today kind of broke me, which is why I am here again lol. Dusted off another 3 buy-ins and am currently at the depth of my comfortable bankroll. Anyways, I end up having a free day to hang around Austin, TX and decide to play at the Lodge. I wish I had this day about a day later so I could try out the poker house @Anthony Martino but I don't foresee myself going back. The table wasn't bad. Around 2-3 players were very good from my perspective. One player would never 3! or raise until the river with the nuts (legit saw this two or three times) and a couple of action players.

Highlight of the day comes from one of the action players.

1/2 at the lodge - $400 deep, villain is around $380 deep.

I wake up to a beauty about an hour and a half into the session

I believe I was either UTG +1 or +2

I raise it up to $10

Folds around to Villain in the CO

Villain 3! to $40 (could of also been $60 but I forget)

I flat call

Flop comes

Even though I just flatted his PFR, I decided to put out a $25 C-Bet because I thought he had an Ace with a higher kicker.

He snap jams.

I snap call and villain flips over . Personally I wasn't really afraid of aces or queens. Figured that the board wasn't wet enough for him to feel like he had to defend his set that hard. Also he did the same exact thing with AKo earlier.

runout comes and villain makes a straight.

Honestly I sit there in disbelief for a moment before rebuying, but damn man. This one really stung for some reason. I don't think I ever push him off of that hand, but would you guys 4! this pre-flop? Or what would you do on the flop, first to act? Sorry if I come off as whining. Just need to vent a little bit lol. I've also just really been appreciating the feedback I've been getting here.

flop lead is not good, this is a leak that can be exploited and flop leaks deepstacked (game, not this hand) get expensive

This is a board never lead on. And doesn’t really even benefit your specific hand that much with this low SPR where you can get stacks in with just two bets. Maybe you can develop a lead range on something like T98, but it’s not easy and especially if newer just build out check raise strategy.