Bad play but good strat? (1 Viewer)

[joeyshin]

Played in a local 25c/50c game last night. I just sat down with $100. Villain has $140

I just sat and this is the 3rd hand since I joined. I’m in late position in a straddled hand with villain as straddler. Villain is a LAG and very aggressive. People often groan when he comes in a hand since they know it won’t be cheap.

PREFLOP
I have .
Raise to $7
Straddler calls

FLOP

Villain checks
I bet $12
Villain calls

TURN

Villain checks
I bet $15
Villain jams and has me covered

Now I’m pretty sure villain has made the flush
I have third of my stack already in with nut flush draw.

What do you do here?

 

[inapinch]

Tough one, but I’d Fold to see another hand, especially with it being early on. If this was later in the night, however, I’d say call.

 

[JMC9389]

Fold

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Fold. Trust your read. When you're calling, what do you hope to see?

 

[Mangatang]

Fold preflop.

 

[Budha]

Very possible this guy’s got A, rag off. You’re drawing to a win (gut shot & nut flush draw) and he’s got the best hand right now (my guess, paired the A)

Tough situation. It’s a bit of luck shot and honestly would depend on how I felt - lol.

Smart play is fold and get it back later, set a precedent you’ll chase and fold on the turn to induce another all-in on the turn from the guy later.

Not knowing just how loose this guy is, I’d probably fold.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I'd call since you have the nut flush draw and gut shot straight draw. I actually think he flopped a set (maybe turned it with 55) or flopped two pair (A 10). I'd be more afraid of the river pairing the board.

Good news is, a rebuy is easily within reach.

Oh yeah...you all need to raise the blinds as well...LOL. 14x raise pre flop?

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I'd call since you have the nut flush draw and gut shot straight draw. I actually think he flopped a set (maybe turned it with 55) or flopped two pair (A 10). I'd be more afraid of the river pairing the board.

Good news is, a rebuy is easily within reach.

Oh yeah...you all need to raise the blinds as well...LOL. 14x raise pre flop?

Oh yeah...and see that shit for cheap next time...

 

[joeyshin]

I think about it for a little bit. I flash my and say “you’re already there right?” His look tells me he has it, but I make the call anyways.


Why did I call? (If you say it’s because I suck you’re only half right lol)


I titled it “bad play good strat” to see if anyone can figure my thought process on why I called.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I titled it “bad play good strat” to see if anyone can figure my thought process on why I called.

Blame it on the bourbon.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Fold. Pot is ~68 and it's 66 to you to call. Basically 1 : 1. Obviously the one-card flush draw against the made flush doesn't meet this threshold. Even if you have all your flush outs and the gutshot, it's a bad call.

However … wait, no, it's still a bad call.

Only way you can even come close to justifying it is if you know the bad beat will turn Villain into the White Whale from Heaven. Then, I can see gambling against him with virtually anything until you catch, purely riding the future EV, and once he snaps you play smart and entertain him for the rest of the night.

Kinda hope that's what happened.

 

[Legend5555]

You shouldn't be betting this turn in position very often. You have a lot of equity and you just got blown off it. Best case you have a full 12 outs, worst you have 6 or 7. At best 26% at worst 13-15%. So you need at least 3 to 1 to call. 132 in there, 64 to call. That's only 2 to 1.

So unless you think you have the best hand a huge amount of the time, this is an obvious fold and illustrates why betting in position with nut draws that have a lot of equity is a bad idea when the only raise you likely end up facing is a jam. If villain can raise an amount where there is still stack depth left and implied odds, then it's different. But this isn't that.

Your raise size pre is also absurdly large in an unopened pot, and it inflated the pot unecessarily which contributed to this happening to you.

More specifics on the hand would also help. Like what position did you open from? How many players are there are the table? What are the stack sizes of the other players? Did anyone limp in front of you? All of these things matter in determining what hands you want to open or isolate with and from what positions.

 

[joeyshin]

You shouldn't be betting this turn in position very often. You have a lot of equity and you just got blown off it. Best case you have a full 12 outs, worst you have 6 or 7. At best 26% at worst 13-15%. So you need at least 3 to 1 to call. 132 in there, 64 to call. That's only 2 to 1.

So unless you think you have the best hand a huge amount of the time, this is an obvious fold and illustrates why betting in position with nut draws that have a lot of equity is a bad idea when the only raise you likely end up facing is a jam. If villain can raise an amount where there is still stack depth left and implied odds, then it's different. But this isn't that.

Your raise size pre is also absurdly large in an unopened pot, and it inflated the pot unecessarily which contributed to this happening to you.

More specifics on the hand would also help. Like what position did you open from? How many players are there are the table? What are the stack sizes of the other players? Did anyone limp in front of you? All of these things matter in determining what hands you want to open or isolate with and from what positions.

Yes. I already know odds tell me to fold. I was looking for ulterior reasons to call, which ultimately I did bc of those ulterior motives.

9 handed and I was late position. Most players stacks were $70-$150. It was folded to me. I was cuttoff

 

[joeyshin]

So I reluctantly made the call.
Oh after I called, he showed turned flush

I know I’m going to lose this hand but since I just sat down I don’t want villain pushing me around all night. He does this often with post flop $20-30 bets into $10 pots. I’ll take the loss here to make him reconsider overbetting every flop. I figure this plays into my game in the long run. So I make the call and he berates me with “pot odds” yadda yadda. But after that, every hand I wasn’t in that he was in he bet $15-30 on the flop. Every hand we were in together he bet $7-12 on the flop. He saw me as a calling station that was unbluffable since I was such a bad player.


I was only able to play 2 hours but I ended up with $328 for the night.











Oh and that River card?


I felt really bad since I wasn’t trying to win the hand, I just didn’t want to face aggro bets all night.

 

[Legend5555]

There are better ways to accomplish your goals than making calls this bad.

 

[joeyshin]

There are better ways to accomplish your goals than making calls this bad.

Yeah. But I’m not smart enough

 

[inapinch]

OMG reading you hit the nut flush after all this drama.

i came.

 

[joeyshin]

There are better ways to accomplish your goals than making calls this bad.

I read your thoughts on a lot of these strategy hands and your line is the one I almost always agree with. I wish I played like you Lol.

How would you have handled the situation. Not this hand in particular, but just overly aggro players

 

[JustinInMN]

Fold. Pot is ~68 and it's 66 to you to call. Basically 1 : 1. Obviously the one-card flush draw against the made flush doesn't meet this threshold. Even if you have all your flush outs and the gutshot, it's a bad call.

Pot is way bigger than this. If villian pushed in it's effectively $100 he's out of or the and hero as put in $34. So it's actually $66 to win $134, nearly 2:1.

That said, I know villain just called out of the straddle so surely made diamonds is part of the range, but really we are only talking about the lower and mid connectors here since the and are all accounted for. I kind of think villain could also have some Ax with one diamond here, can have some two pair and sets too as played.

The decision to call I think is close.

You shouldn't be betting this turn in position very often. You have a lot of equity and you just got blown off it. Best case you have a full 12 outs, worst you have 6 or 7. At best 26% at worst 13-15%. So you need at least 3 to 1 to call. 132 in there, 64 to call. That's only 2 to 1.

This is a great point, and in general it's good advice to avoid marginal spots against aggressors. I think you would check this turn a fair bit with your ax non diamond holdings, I don't think you need to bet this turn.

 

[Eriks]

How would you have handled the situation. Not this hand in particular, but just overly aggro players

Wrong ”you” here but fwiw: I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to ”out aggro” the aggros or make bad calls to convince them to change their style. The latter is just playing into their plan.

The boring answer, I think, is: tightening up opening/3bet etc ranges and trap a lot more postflop. Avoid playing oop against them. Be prepared to call down lighter heads-up and accept the variance that comes with it. This can obviously be quite frustrating when card dead or when they sun run.

Edit: of course it also matters whether they’re aggro fish or good LAGs. But I took it this one was mostly the former.

 

[Legend5555]

I read your thoughts on a lot of these strategy hands and your line is the one I almost always agree with. I wish I played like you Lol.

How would you have handled the situation. Not this hand in particular, but just overly aggro players

Play stronger ranges. 3 bet them more aggressively with stuff like AJo, KQo, TT, etc. Be willing to call them down more often when there are lots of missed draws. Don't try to out aggress them, or call bad against them. Your want to trap more often. And keep pots smaller with your marginal hands like top pair weak kicker and strong draws. Less bluffing and semi bluffing.

If you want to give the impression you are giving more action then your are, then your widened 3 betting range will help. Plus you can open wider from late position. But keep in mind that post flop, you general still want to play passively against overly aggressive players that aren't technically sound.

What you doing want to do is start calling wider, especially out of position. Betting out of position on an overly aggressive player forces you to have to make a lot of marginal decisions. And you want to avoid that when you can. Sometimes it's unavoidable.

Also pay attention to open sizes. If he, like you did in this hand, raises to 7x, then you really don't have to play many hands against that and you shouldn't if your goal is to make a profit.

On the other hand, if you can raise to 7x and get called by 84s, then by all means, raise to 7x. But keep in mind that you still need to play good post flop. Nothing wrong with bloating the pot when you know your opponent will call with junk. But you can't just go blasting away post when your opponent doesn't fold very often or is willing to play back at you on boards that aren't good for you.

 

[joeyshin]

Play stronger ranges. 3 bet them more aggressively with stuff like AJo, KQo, TT, etc. Be willing to call them down more often when there are lots of missed draws. Don't try to out aggress them, or call bad against them. Your want to trap more often. And keep pots smaller with your marginal hands like top pair weak kicker and strong draws. Less bluffing and semi bluffing.

If you want to give the impression you are giving more action then your are, then your widened 3 betting range will help. Plus you can open wider from late position. But keep in mind that post flop, you general still want to play passively against overly aggressive players that aren't technically sound.

What you doing want to do is start calling wider, especially out of position. Betting out of position on an overly aggressive player forces you to have to make a lot of marginal decisions. And you want to avoid that when you can. Sometimes it's unavoidable.

Also pay attention to open sizes. If he, like you did in this hand, raises to 7x, then you really don't have to play many hands against that and you shouldn't if your goal is to make a profit.

On the other hand, if you can raise to 7x and get called by 84s, then by all means, raise to 7x. But keep in mind that you still need to play good post flop. Nothing wrong with bloating the pot when you know your opponent will call with junk. But you can't just go blasting away post when your opponent doesn't fold very often or is willing to play back at you on boards that aren't good for you.

That sounds too straightforward. I like to mix it up so that even I’m confused. Lol

 

[MrCatPants]

Preflop open depending on how late of position is ok (but marginal). 14x open though just leaves you vulnerable to getting 3 bet by better hands. Lesser size open gets the job done.

Post flop bet doesn't accomplish much. All we have is a gutter.

Turn bet is ok if we checked flop to try to take it down with a combo draw.

As played turn, facing the all in, is a fold. Villian likely has at least one diamond to block us and is often ahead to way ahead in the hand (diamond and a pair, sets, two pairs, made flushes.) We can only give partial credit to our non diamond queen outs as well.

 

[Legend5555]

That sounds too straightforward. I like to mix it up so that even I’m confused. Lol

That's fine. If you want to play to gamble and not for profit, more power to you. Nothing wrong with playing primarily for fun. But then why come asking for strategy advice?

 

[joeyshin]

That's fine. If you want to play to gamble and not for profit, more power to you. Nothing wrong with playing primarily for fun. But then why come asking for strategy advice?

It was a jab in jest. I asked advice about making bad plays to influence the long game. I’m not usually a gambler and probably more tight and passive, but only made this call to change the table dynamics

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pot is way bigger than this. If villian pushed in it's effectively $100 he's out of or the and hero as put in $34. So it's actually $66 to win $134, nearly 2:1.
don't think you need to bet this turn.

You're right, sloppy math on my part. Still not good enough odds, but not by such an extreme margin.

 

[NeutronHim]

I'm a strong believer in not getting too out of line.

You find yourself in the same spot with bottom pair and the redraw and you want to call it off, go ahead. But calling off 130bb "to change table dynamics" is almost assuredly a losing play, (you have probably 9.5 outs generously going off of your read ->19%, so its' roughly a 50bb punt.) especially since you could just change the table dynamics later with a better hand.

It's never profitable to punt 50bb in EV to change table dynamics.

You're ... calling him when you know he's value-betting and denying equity so he won't bluff you?? Why not just call him when he is bluffing you if you really think he's "pushing you around" and are strong enough to read his hand for what it is? If you feel you are "being pushed around," then what you really mean is "there is a leak in his game." Or if your issue is that he's value betting too thin, why not just trap or better yet just fold when you're behind so he's not printing with his thin value bets?? If your issue is that hes value betting thin and bluffing a lot, just trap. In other words, catch him with his pants down when your pants aren't (down.)

You can make the argument that it takes time to catch a hand to change the table dynamics, so you lose EV waiting for that hand. I tend to find empirically that erring on the side of patience is usually better.

You can change table dynamics with a way less -ev play. Bluffcatching in general against these aggro types, even if you think they mostly have it, usually isn't that -ev and if you do it with a truly shitty hand they may stop bluffing you altogether (and you can be good sometimes!)

Btw, sorry if I screwed up the math, I am too lazy to check it

 

[CraigT78]

It's rivers like this one that keeps me playing poker, for what it's worth.

 

[bergs]

I thought you played it perfectly and I would’ve done the same.