Another NLHE Hand From Thursday Night (1 Viewer)

MrCatPants

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Without a side pot out there you think he's calling a sizable bet? Even if he gets through me he still has to get through UTG. With a one liner out there I would think a sizable donk bet would only get called by hands like 65 suited and sets?

I agonized over the sizing on this one and it's the reason I posted the hand to begin with.
 

boltonguy

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I think given the opportunity he will X hands here with SDV that he would call a bet with.
Question is given the strength you showed would he bluff? Youve raised and called all bets so far so that looks risky; doesnt look like your folding.
 

grebe

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Without a side pot out there you think he's calling a sizable bet? Even if he gets through me he still has to get through UTG. With a one liner out there I would think a sizable donk bet would only get called by hands like 65 suited and sets?

I agonized over the sizing on this one and it's the reason I posted the hand to begin with.
There's really no sizing issue here. Check or shove.
 

Pinball

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@MrCatPants

Old poker wisdom: If you have to post a poker hand in a forum and it's a weak starting hand -> FOLD

(just to tease you a bit:p)

Your selfpicture of being somewhere between LAG and TAG has to be reconsidered :eek: it might be more somewhere between "loose-passive-calling-station-who-calls-with-all-siuted-cards" and some other-strange-playing-style....:ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO: Hey, you are on my level!
 

JustinInMN

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Guess I am in the habit of getting in on these threads at the end.

Preflop, I think this is generally a fold against a raise, but I think calling is defendable because this is looking like a multi-way pot and a TAG BB probably isn't going to squeeze without some strength, which is almost as good as closing the action. With a LAG yet to act in the BB, this call would probably burn money. It may be burning money as it is, but I don't know how bad it is in a probable 6-way pot.

On the flop, I probably just check call this. I don't think check raising accomplishes much unless you think UTG has a lot of air here and opened an 8-handed pot UTG. Also, given the pf read he has willingness to station, these players make bad bluff or semi bluff targets. If he's competent, I would guess his range skews more toward overpairs and maybe even sets on this board compared to missed overcards he would just give up. If check-raising doesn't have a high chance of winning the pot there, it's probably not the best play.

The best way to get paid if you hit is to keep as many players in as possible. I think check call is pretty clear.

The donk bet idea is interesting of UTG isn't so pair heavy and has a lot of missed overs on this flop. However, if I think UTG is pair heavy, this is going to limit the field and it will be an overpair v combo draw sort of race.

On the turn the math is pretty simple, call again. It's $58 to win $218, you have more than enough outs to call. I don't think you benefit much by trying to force button out which you may not be able to do anyway. A lot of button limps hit this board hard as well.

On the river I think hero needs to move in. But it's tough to figure. Basically hero has to determine the frequency in which button has a set and can't fold it versus the times he will have QT. That sort of decision requires a bit of history. I do agree with @grebe at $170 effective, shoving is the only play if choosing to bet. Maybe going for a third-pot bet of $90 is over half the stack, it's all getting in one way or another. Smaller sizing maybe that helps you get looked up by a little more, but it also can become a sizing tell, shove=weak, small size=strength. I think you need to shove here to protect future bluff shoves as well.

If villain is good enough to lay down a set to a shove, then the shove gains nothing and check-call is the play. If villain will bluff if checked-to, then check call is play. But I think on average, most villains will check-behind non-straights with showdown value here, so I prefer to shove as hero and hope for a tilt payoff. If button has QT (and he may) nice hand, reload.
 
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MrCatPants

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So as I'm contemplating my action, UTG starts saying "Oh, what the hell, it had to be a fucking jack. What a terrible card." He's not a hollywood actor - so this is likely a legit statement.

Does that change how you are contemplating this action?
 

MrCatPants

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@MrCatPants

Old poker wisdom: If you have to post a poker hand in a forum and it's a weak starting hand -> FOLD

(just to tease you a bit:p)

Your selfpicture of being somewhere between LAG and TAG has to be reconsidered :eek: it might be more somewhere between "loose-passive-calling-station-who-calls-with-all-siuted-cards" and some other-strange-playing-style....:ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO: Hey, you are on my level!
We all have these hands once or twice in a session - I'm just brave enough to post mine :)

I did have the "Is this an any two cards situation given the cheap price and likely non-squeeze coming from BB?" and the "Even if I hit something on the flop, I'll still feel not good AND be out of position." thought. 3 bourbons won and I called. :)
 

JustinInMN

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So as I'm contemplating my action, UTG starts saying "Oh, what the hell, it had to be a fucking jack. What a terrible card." He's not a hollywood actor - so this is likely a legit statement.

Does that change how you are contemplating this action?
Yup. This definitely makes this a must-shove. If you are correct he is never acting he never has QT here. Furthermore, he is never going to bluff at this after such a statement. You have to shove and hope for the tilt call. The complaint is at least a sign of some tilt.

My guess is he has JT though and is going to make the crying call knowing he just lost half the pot on that river, and you are going to show a crabby guy T5s and stack half the chips. But still, the shove is a freeroll, and if he's making this statement with three of a kind instead of a straight, absolute win for you :)!

Another late edit. This is super gross if button has 65 :).
 

MrCatPants

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Yup. This definitely makes this a must-shove. If you are correct he is never acting he never has QT here. Furthermore, he is never going to bluff at this after such a statement. You have to shove and hope for the tilt call. The complaint is at least a sign of some tilt.

My guess is he has JT though and is going to make the crying call knowing he just lost half the pot on that river, and you are going to show a crabby guy T5s and stack half the chips. But still, the shove is a freeroll, and if he's making this statement with three of a kind instead of a straight, absolute win for you :)!

Another late edit. This is super gross if button has 65 :).
With it being UTG making the comment, it had me rethinking the shove line. There's no sidepot, so any bet by me is about getting the right to showdown with UTG/getting additional value from button. Accordingly, I don't think I would lead with any bluffs or weaker holdings - there's no point given UTGs comment and anything below solid two pair on my part is a likely loser. Accordingly, it wouldn't make sense for me to be lead betting anything weaker than a set (or maybe top two pair, but I think that's a stretch). After the comment (which again says UTG has solid showdown value, just not a jack high straight or better) I would think the only hands that would be looking me up with if I shove are 65, 10x, q10, and maybe sets of Js, 9s, and maybe 8s (I think set of 7s find a fold here). And BTN's sets might have raised flop before I did, so those I think are less likely. So I was thinking it's really only 65 I'd be targeting for value with a large bet - likely much weaker holdings that wouldn't call much as they probably lose to UTG. Don't think a shove ever looks like a bluff here.

Would be interested to hear thoughts on this reasoning (again, assuming UTGs comment means exactly what it says at face value, which it likely does (and based on following action definitely does)).

I ended up placing a small value bet accordingly to try to get action from a wider range of holdings (two pairs, sets of 7s, etc.)

.50/50 NLHE Hand

SB: HERO - image between TAG and LAG - $400
BB: Winningest player in the game; TAG - $250
UTG: Competent player with shades of a calling station - $90
MP: LAG - $500
HJ: Member so I won't post my thoughts on profile - $150
CO: Maniac who has been generally more LAGy tonight - $350
BTN: Member so I won't post my thoughts on profile - $250

UTG raises to $2
MP calls
HJ folds
CO calls
BTN calls

Pot is $9

Hero looks down at :th::5h: and CALLS the extra 1.50.
BB calls.

Flop is :9h::8h::7s:

Hero checks
BB checks
UTG Bets $7
MP folds
CO folds
BTN calls $7
Hero raises to $30
UTG calls
BTN calls

Turn is :9h::8h::7s::3d:

Hero checks
UTG leads all in for $58
BTN calls
Hero CALLS

Pot is approximately $270. UTG is all in - button has about $170 left.

River is :9h::8h::7s::3d::jd:

Hero down bets $55
UTG says "Damn it - he has a 10!" (one player to a hand UTG, your comment before was helpful, this one is not :))
BTN contemplates briefly and puts in a frustrated/crying call.

I turn over my cards. BTN mucks. UTG mucks. Do not know what they actually had.
 

JustinInMN

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With it being UTG making the comment, it had me rethinking the shove line.
Oops, my misunderstanding then.

Accordingly, it wouldn't make sense for me to be lead betting anything weaker than a set (or maybe top two pair, but I think that's a stretch). After the comment (which again says UTG has solid showdown value, just not a jack high straight or better) I would think the only hands that would be looking me up with if I shove are 65, 10x, q10, and maybe sets of Js, 9s, and maybe 8s (I think set of 7s find a fold here). And BTN's sets might have raised flop before I did, so those I think are less likely. So I was thinking it's really only 65 I'd be targeting for value with a large bet - likely much weaker holdings that wouldn't call much as they probably lose to UTG. Don't think a shove ever looks like a bluff here.
Yeah, UTG did kind of poison the river on this making it much tougher for button if he figures out if you bet you can show down. Still if you are betting into a dry side pot, it usually means the same thing anyway. Even to "bluff" into a dry side pot, the bettor still has to have the all in player beat to win anything.

I think I still prefer the shove to anything, but the more I think about it, I don't hate the downbet on the river as much as I did before if you are going to bet other holdings at this size that are not as close to the nuts. Especially if you don't think villain has a lot of bluff-shoves in his range either.

So in summary, I think well played on the turn and river for sure. Preflop decision is close, I still have trouble with the flop decision though.
 

kirchhausen

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Another hand for discussion; .50/50 NLHE Hand

SB: HERO - image between TAG and LAG - $400
BB: Winningest player in the game; TAG - $250
UTG: Competent player with shades of a calling station - $120
MP: LAG - $500
HJ: Member so I won't post my thoughts on profile - $150
CO: Maniac who has been generally more LAGy tonight - $350
BTN: Member so I won't post my thoughts on profile - $250

UTG raises to $2
MP calls
HJ folds
CO calls
BTN calls

Pot is $9

Hero looks down at :th::5h:

Action on hero.
fold pre
 
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I’d probably tossed you one of these if i was button or UTG. LOL
EFCD235E-3AF6-4551-9FAA-AF8403540472.jpeg
 

Darson

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How do you remember exactly what cards came where? I seriously forget everything once the hand is over.

I'll tell you what I do remember - I knew you were drawing, I knew you missed but I couldn't put you catching a lucky river. I had a set, I think it was 7s.
 

MrCatPants

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How do you remember exactly what cards came where? I seriously forget everything once the hand is over.

I'll tell you what I do remember - I knew you were drawing, I knew you missed but I couldn't put you catching a lucky river. I had a set, I think it was 7s.
Cards I remember. Stacks and bets are a little hard sometimes. You had me on the missed FD?
 
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