AA... Interesting Spot, WWYD? (1 Viewer)

Trihonda

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Playing $1/2 at my local casino. About 4 hours into the session.

Cast:

Hero is the BB with $400. (on $300 buyin). Table image is TAG. Has taken some bad beats and at one point was down to $75, but has worked his way back up to current stack.

MP is a Tight nit. She's played very few hands, and is sitting on around $140.

Cut off (CO) is new to the table. He appears somewhat loose, and has $260 on around $400 buyin.

Button is a TAG player, who is the session's "luckbox" and is sitting on $650 on a $140 buyin.

The table limps around to the CO, who bets $10. The button calls for $10, and the SB folds. Hero looks down two black ACES. There's maybe $26-28 in the pot. What would you do?
 

manamongkids

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Make it $35-40. bb usually not given much credit here, could easily look like AK that doesn't want callers where players might be enticed to call with suited connectors or pairs and hope to spike a set
 

DrStrange

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I agree - a pot sized 3-bet. Please do not be tricky-trappy playing against unknowns.

If Hero wins $27 uncontested, fine.
If Hero isolates CO, then Hero is pot committed on almost every flop. The pot would be $80 with effective stacks $220 ----> SPR > 3
If Hero gets all the listed villains in the pot, we would be playing for $160. I'd be inclined to shove most flops. The button is a potential threat but the stacks for CO and MP are too small relative to the projected pot to be worth worrying about. (Hero might be checking an awful flop, say :th: :9h: :8h: or something equally yucky.)

Smash mouth poker for the win -=- DrStrange
 

Trihonda

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The professor has weighed in, so without further delay, let's continue the action:

Hero bets $30, a hair over pot sized bet.

The table folds around to MP lady, who deliberates for a bit, seems uncomfortable (is this an act?), then jams her $140 into the middle of the table. This lady is a nit, and she just 4-bet after she limped in MP?

CO smoothly announces all-in over the top of Mrs. MP. CO is loose, but he has to realize how suspicious/odd MP's play is here, enough that he 5-bets? with two bigger stacks left to act. I imagine he's trying isolate, but is that risky, when a person who is left to act already three-bet him?

The Button Folds.

Action is on hero. One would think this is an easy call, but I'm curious if there is a case to be made for folding here?
 

manamongkids

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You serious? There is never going to be a case to folding here, unless youre in a satellite and in a comfy chip position vs 5 all ins including the chip leader and want to preserve a seat.

You need to do the phil hellmuth, beat the other guy in the pot shoving your whole stack
 

grandgnu

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I like a reraise pre-flop to $45. A lot of people will interpret that as a hand like AJ or 99 that is afraid to see a flop and is just trying to take it down. As played, no, not folding. Let me guess, Hero and MP both have Aces and CO gets there?
 

Payback

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paranoidparrot_105440_1325138405.jpg
 

catalyzeme

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This IS an easy call. Even if their cards were face up I can't make the math work to find a fold. Worst case scenario is +EV, as far as I can tell. Once you assign ranges, especially since you are heads up against the CO you are estimating as weaker for the large side pot, there is absolutely no way to find a fold.

With real ranges, the chances that you are up against big pocket pairs (that are just as likely to match each other as your Aces) or even multiple AK/AQ type hands is huge. You are way +EV here.
 
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Trihonda

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LOL, ok, the results:

Our hero actually called so fast, he did so simultaneously with the button's fold.. Didn't really give the button a chance to call/fold. ;)

After the hand, I overheard a couple guys talking about people folding aces in certain spots. Just wondering people's thoughts on that applied to this hand. Hero was never folding, even if the button jammed, putting hero's entire stack at risk.

Now, here's what happened.

Board runs our 575JQ rainbow. Hero's aces hold, and hero pulls in a nice $800+ pot.

After the river, CO tells hero that if he has Aces, he's good. I took this to mean that he had KK. The MP lady's husband was sitting right next to me, and I overheard a conversation a few minutes later where they were debriefing the hand off to the side... MP had AK (which took away one of CO's outs). MP was beside herself, reeling at her bad play. CO rebought, game on.

Chips shortly after the hand:

4-21-15%20Ho%20Chunk%20Live%20Stack.jpg
 

DrStrange

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Hero could ask for little better than this situation. This is a fist pump jam - there is no need to make this complicated. Since this is a cash game, AA has positive equity in all preflop cases - hero should be eager to get it all in preflop and avoid any tricky post flop situations. {I'd be interested if someone knows a tricky situation where pocket aces don't have positive preflop equity aside from AA vs AA.}

There are specific situations in tournaments where Hero should fold every hand, even pocket aces, but don't let that almost unique situation cloud your thinking. Players could hardly ever go wrong just getting it in with aces preflop.

Me? I'd get it in ASAP and try not to giggle -=- DrStrange
 

links_slayer

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lots of money in the middle.

holding the best hand possible at the moment.

what else do you want? fold and wait for a better spot. lolololcopter

should've known this was either a thinly veiled bad beat or mini brag.

nh.
 

Trihonda

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lots of money in the middle.

holding the best hand possible at the moment.

what else do you want? fold and wait for a better spot. lolololcopter

should've known this was either a thinly veiled bad beat or mini brag.

nh.

Was partly curious about people's thoughts on bet sizing pre-flop. But yes, excited at the chip haul. However, I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd raked a decent pot. Got lucky, and don't think it's much to brag about, luck that is. Not like AA vs KK vs AK is going to play out much differently pre-flop (once MP jammed). What happens after the flop had nothing to do with player abilities (just the draw of the cards). ;)

To be honest, I don't get involved in too many $800 pots. I don't want to over anylize it, but I do appreciate looking at some of my decisions and getting feedback.

If MP and/or CO just flat, the plan was to pot size+ bet any flop, (re evaluating if the flop come up super scary KQJ or suited three straight cards.)
 
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Ben

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2 thoughts:

1. Hero raising to $30 is not "just over pot-sized" nor even close to a pot-sized bet - once hero catches up to the $10 raise there is ~$37 in the pot and the "raise" part is only $20. or about half pot. A "pot" raise would be $47 total. Hero should keep this in mind when evaluating bet-sizing in the future (personally I would have made it $40.)

2. This would be a much more interesting question if we were playing Omaha and hero has, say, AA87 with one suit, with identical action.
 

Trihonda

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1. Hero raising to $30 is not "just over pot-sized" nor even close to a pot-sized bet - once hero catches up to the $10 raise there is ~$37 in the pot and the "raise" part is only $20. or about half pot. A "pot" raise would be $47 total. Hero should keep this in mind when evaluating bet-sizing in the future (personally I would have made it $40.)

Appreciating the education here, and maybe I've been thinking about this wrong all along? Here were my calculations:

It limped around (but not everyone called here, and 9 handed table)

SB+BB = $3.
UTG+1 = Fold
UTG+2 = $2
UTG+3 = $2
UTG+4 = $2 (<-- Middle Position Lady)
UTG+5 = Fold
CO = $10 Raise
Button = $10 Call

SB Folds:

Action back on BB (only in for $2 at this point): At this moment, I would figure the pot at $29. Should I be factoring in my call of the $10 first? I'm confused. Even if you assumed the entire table called, we're only adding $4 here to the pot calc.

Ben, lay some wisdom on me! :)
 

Chippy McChiperson

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To figure out a pot size bet, you add the amount in it would take you to call the raise, then add up everything in the pot. You would then raise that amount over the call. So $8 more for you to call, and the "pot" is $37. $37 over the initial $10 raise is a raise to $47. It's a little confusing at first, but once you start playinbg a bunch of Omaha (or pot based games) you learn pretty quickly.
 

Ben

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Should I be factoring in my call of the $10 first?

Yes. If there is $29 in the pot currently and action is on you with $10 to call, then a pot-sized raise would be $49 total ($10 call making the pot $39, plus $39 on top.)

If it helps you can think of it as a call and a raise - and if confused at the table, say "raise" and toss out the chips to call, then look at the pot at that point. This is mainly important in PLO and other pot-limit games, but still applicable in holdem when considering what price you are actually laying with raise size X.
 

Trihonda

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To figure out a pot size bet, you add the amount in it would take you to call the raise, then add up everything in the pot. You would then raise that amount over the call. So $8 more for you to call, and the "pot" is $37. $37 over the initial $10 raise is a raise to $47. It's a little confusing at first, but once you start playinbg a bunch of Omaha (or pot based games) you learn pretty quickly.

LOL, Unfortunately I'm confused even more... ha

So once I call, the pot is now $37. But I'm not calling, I'm raising. So if I were playing Omaha, and there's currently $29 on the table, I declare pot, and I owe $47? Huh? OK, and once I decide I'm playing along, and I add my $8 to the kitty, and then the table is at $37, then declaring POT, I now have to add $10? The CO really only raised $8, where does this $10 come in? Like I said, confused.

I want to learn.

Edited to add that I read Ben's simultaneous post above, and that makes is slightly clearer (but not completely). Also makes a great argument against me playing PLO, ever... LOL
 

DrStrange

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Playing PLO, AAs8s7 is perfectly fine as a "go to war" hand. Hero doesn't have the equity edge he does in holdem but hero still has a top quality hand. A naked pair of aces post flop is rarely as good in PLO as it looks to a hold'em player. But all the action happened preflop so no worries.

DrStrange
 

Trihonda

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The initial raise was to $10. After adding up whats in the pot you raise that pot over the initial raise. $37 + $10 = $47.

OK, the initial raise was "to" $10, but it was only a raise of $8. Does this matter? People's $2 calls are already being counted in the "pot", as well as the initial $8 raise and call by the CO and Button. Seems like double-dipping add another $10 (or even $8). :(

Maybe I'm just not destined to understand this...
 

Chippy McChiperson

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if you want to make a pot-sized raise, you raise the size of the pot over the initial raise. The initial raise was to $10, and the size of the pot is $37. Thus a pot-sized raise would be $10 + $37 or $47. That's just how it is. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
 

ChaosRock

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The size of the pot is determined 'as if' you had called the bet. So it's irrelevant if you had $2 as the BB and only need $8 to complete or if you're not in the bind and have to put $10. The sum of those two is $10 regardless ($2+$8) or (0+$10). So you know the pot is $37 after your 'pseudo-call'. So you're raising $37 (pot) for a total bet of $47 ($2+$8+$37) or (0+$10+$37). The new bet is $47...

Maybe what confused you wast Ben adding $10 to the pot instead of only $8 (since you were in the BB already). Pot is $29 and you need $8 to complete, for a total pot of $37 and not $39...
 
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pltrgyst

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Also remember that in many/most (all?) casinos, the size of the pot (or the maximum permissible raise) is calculated treating the small blind as a bb -- in this case, $2 instead of $1.

Thus a pot-sized bet pre-flop UTG is $8, rather than $7: $2 sb + $2 bb + ($2 required to call + $6 raise).
 

Trihonda

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if you want to make a pot-sized raise, you raise the size of the pot over the initial raise. The initial raise was to $10, and the size of the pot is $37. Thus a pot-sized raise would be $10 + $37 or $47. That's just how it is. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I think I understand the part of my pseudo call already being counted. However, the problem I'm trying to wrap my brain around is this: While I'm debating the call/raise/fold, the pot is $47. Now, if I had normal BB junk and folded, and MP folds as well, then it's heads up between CO and Button. When they start action after the flop, there's literally $29 in the pot, are they starting out action as the pot being $47? And if they called "pot" in a PLO game, is the pot back to $29? I'm confused at this...
 

Chippy McChiperson

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If there is $29 in the pot after the flop, the first person to bet in a Pot Limit game can only bet up to $29. If you had called $8, and there was $37 in the pot, then the could bet up to $37.
 

ChaosRock

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I think I understand the part of my pseudo call already being counted. However, the problem I'm trying to wrap my brain around is this: While I'm debating the call/raise/fold, the pot is $47. Now, if I had normal BB junk and folded, and MP folds as well, then it's heads up between CO and Button. When they start action after the flop, there's literally $29 in the pot, are they starting out action as the pot being $47? And if they called "pot" in a PLO game, is the pot back to $29? I'm confused at this...

When you're contemplating call/raise/fold, the pot is still $29... IF you just call, the pot is now $37... If you POT, the pot is now $74... The pot is NEVER $47, what is $47 is you BET when you POT... Action post flop is simple, the pot is what the pot is, either $29, or $37 or $74+ depending on your fold/call/raise...
 
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pltrgyst

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I think I understand the part of my pseudo call already being counted. However, the problem I'm trying to wrap my brain around is this: While I'm debating the call/raise/fold, the pot is $47. Now, if I had normal BB junk and folded, and MP folds as well, then it's heads up between CO and Button. When they start action after the flop, there's literally $29 in the pot, are they starting out action as the pot being $47? And if they called "pot" in a PLO game, is the pot back to $29? I'm confused at this...

No. When the action comes to you, the pot is $29. When figuring out what your pot-sized raise is, you use an 'effective pot" which includes the amount you would be obligated to call to stay in the hand. That "effective pot" is $37, so you can put a total of $47 out in front of you (the $2 you already have in the pot, plus the $8 you'd have to call, plus the "effective pot").
 

BGinGA

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When you're contemplating call/raise/fold, the pot is still $29... IF you just call, the pot is now $37... If you POT, the pot is now $74... The pot is NEVER $47, what is $47 is you BET when you POT... Action post flop is simple, the pot is what the pot is, either $29, or $37 or $74 depending on your fold/call/raise...

Although the pot size will never be $74 for very long.... because if everybody folds to your $37 pot raise, that pot is yours. If somebody calls your raise, the pot is now $110. If you're playing with Ben, the pot is now $220 (after he re-pots for $110) and the action is back on you....

It's not the math that scares me away from playing pot-limit Omaha...... it's Ben......
:eek:
 

ChaosRock

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It's not the math that scares me away from playing pot-limit Omaha...... it's Ben......
:eek:

If my memory serves me right, you walked away from the circus table Friday at the S@P2 as a big winner... ;) But you're right, Ben doesn't know the meaning of the words fold, call or raise in PL games... Only POT or RE-POT...
 
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