Does anyone have and good resources for 5 card draw? Odds of winning, general guidelines for changing out cards. Are there charts or solvers for 5 card where I could see things like if it were better to trade out two trying to make a flush or trade three trying to get top pair.
5 card draw, strategy and charts (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ThrowBack
- Start date
Hmm plenty online bet generally chase full houses/3 of a kinds/2 pair.
Are you talking video poker or 5 card draw live poker?
Are you talking video poker or 5 card draw live poker?
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
Look into Doyle Brunson's Super System books. Few recent books have been written about the game because its less popular, but they've got sections for 5 card draw. I would offer to lend em to you but a friend is currently borrowing it, I'll hit you up when they return my set.
FDLmold
Royal Flush
I'll echo to read the chapter in Super System 1. Mike Caro wrote the chapter. It's based on the California card room typical rules of the time, but the advice, if it applies to your type of game, is top notch.
legend672
Full House
Pure poker. The best
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
As long the draw is split pot with Omaha I’m in!
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
There is also a chapter written by Mike Caro in the first Super System edition.
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JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
We do play it as part of dealers choice. My rough strategy.
From any position I am going to open with one pair hands TTxxx or better. I might loosen to 88xxx in later position and if I am first in. But with five starting cards, leaving the gate without at least a high(ish) pair to start is probably spotting an advantage to your opponents.
As for drawing, I will always draw three to one-pair holdings, draw one with two-pair, three of a kind, and four of a kind hands, plus open-end straight draw or flush draws.
I stand pat with made straights, flushes, and full houses.
I don't have two card draws in my strategy because it either telegraphs that you are holding 3 of a kind, or you are drawing to a pair and an ace kicker. I would never draw two to make a straight or flush, even three suited cards in a row. Either way no one will make you for a straight or a flush too often drawing 2, they might make you for those hands if you have those one card draws in your range.
If someone enters the pot ahead of me, I am probably going to play one-pair KKxxx or AAxxx only, plus two-pair and better hands, or open end straight or flush draws. I'll probably reraise most two pair hands depending on how loose I think the opener is.
From any position I am going to open with one pair hands TTxxx or better. I might loosen to 88xxx in later position and if I am first in. But with five starting cards, leaving the gate without at least a high(ish) pair to start is probably spotting an advantage to your opponents.
As for drawing, I will always draw three to one-pair holdings, draw one with two-pair, three of a kind, and four of a kind hands, plus open-end straight draw or flush draws.
I stand pat with made straights, flushes, and full houses.
I don't have two card draws in my strategy because it either telegraphs that you are holding 3 of a kind, or you are drawing to a pair and an ace kicker. I would never draw two to make a straight or flush, even three suited cards in a row. Either way no one will make you for a straight or a flush too often drawing 2, they might make you for those hands if you have those one card draws in your range.
If someone enters the pot ahead of me, I am probably going to play one-pair KKxxx or AAxxx only, plus two-pair and better hands, or open end straight or flush draws. I'll probably reraise most two pair hands depending on how loose I think the opener is.
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
Do you play with the Joker ?
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
No. Sometimes we'll call deuces wild or something. In those sorts of wild card games, you should almost never leave the gate without holding one. If the only wild card is a single joker then your drawing hands become a little easier to make. Your weaker openings become even weaker though, I might dump the smaller pairs from my ranges.
One thing you could do is find play money games on pokerstars and play a few hundred hands there, to see how hands play. I know free online poker is a poor substitute, but it can still be pretty helpful in feeling out a new game.
Never jokers
Just tough to decide what to play
Dealing out 6-7 hands at my table, some hands end up with full houses over lower house, flushes and two pairs, everyone having a killer hand
The next hand it comes down to multiple muck hands and two pair vs high pair.
Seems that it really will force position and bet sizing
We are going to add it into our bomb pot, so that will make it interesting as well
Dealing out 6-7 hands at my table, some hands end up with full houses over lower house, flushes and two pairs, everyone having a killer hand
The next hand it comes down to multiple muck hands and two pair vs high pair.
Seems that it really will force position and bet sizing
We are going to add it into our bomb pot, so that will make it interesting as well
semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
Hi, ThrowBack.
I'm an absolute newcomer to this site - this being my very first post ever. I had just earlier this month updated/re-edited a complete essay [20 printed pages - wow] on 5-card-draw poker; which will probably answer every conceivable question you may have about the game!
I'm hesitant to post the link here (to an unaffiliated external site: DeviantArt), since I don't know if the Administrators would frown upon that. I also can't send you any private messages, yet, since I must first have a minimum of 3 (I believe) postings to be allowed to do that. Well, anyway...I'm just a personal blogger (non-commercial, non-advertizing) on DA - where I also post Texas Hold'em pre-flop starting-hands charts (10- thru 6-handed), Game Theory Optimal (GTO) poker insights, photos of our beloved California [sadly, I live in Chicago now], and ... cute K-pop collages and philosophical stuff/rantings, for good measure.
*yes, cute...*
Let me know how to efficiently get the info/essay to you, since my account there has countless tabs - like an endless maze to be clicking thru to find anything....
Surprisingly, there still are a few folks out there - like you - interested in 5CD after all these decades of it waning in popularity!
semi-surreal
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
https://www.deviantart.com/semi-sur...poker-complete-strategy-5CD-trategy-751874378
Overall its interesting. Very odd to tell us which cards we should use to play and what our raising limits should be lol, but beginner strategy is fine.
Overuse of bold and italics makes the emphasis lose meaning, way too much going on.
Overall its interesting. Very odd to tell us which cards we should use to play and what our raising limits should be lol, but beginner strategy is fine.
Overuse of bold and italics makes the emphasis lose meaning, way too much going on.
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semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
Thank you for commenting; I'm pleased you found it interesting - especially for such a long and technical essay that it is.
I was afraid it might put people to sleep.
'Overuse of bold and italics' you say...? haha, I deserve that - that's what I get for intentionally modeling my writing style to that used (to the extreme) in Brunson's book 'Super System'. He and I throw around boldings and italics like ... loose players splash poker chips!
Well, I hope I did an OK job of (statistically) 'balancing' the various strategies/tactics, maybe achieving some 'universal' (GTO) approach for at least beginner-to-intermediate players(?)
Of course, feel free to use any types of cards, betting-limits, and even exploitive/exploitative moves you and your buddies/opponents would like; I'm curious about and open-minded to anything you (and they) may suggest.
Thanks, again.
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
NL for me :
NL 5CD High with Joker
NL Cali lowball (ace to five) with Joker
NL Kansas City (deuce to seven) without Joker
semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
Actually, I don't even play 5CD - nor have I ever played it, as incredible as that may sound - even though I've recently completed 6 years of exhaustive research into it! I've always been fascinated by its combination of statistics + psychology [how to "control the luck-factor"]; that's why I've dedicated the equivalent of 20-typed pages of it on my DeviantArt blog.
That also goes for my (general) GTO essay [originally intended for Hold'em, but applicable to other poker variants, as well], plus the various (individual and aggregate) postings of my Texas Hold'em starting-hands charts (mostly found within my so-called "Scraps" gallery there.
Since I only hang around strong chess players [no poker players, whatsoever, in my circle of friends/acquaintances], that's all I ever play - so I've gotten quite strong, myself, at chess for that reason.
haha, before you're tempted to say, "Wow, this dude has no street-cred!"...realize what my postings are intended to do: to neutralize, with universal GTO, 50+% of all poker players - by FORCE (pure math/statistics) - not just psychology/exploitative play. Now that's a rare strategy!
So ... how did you like my essay; is there anything I should alter or add to improve upon it? I know a 2nd essay, on exploitive/exploitative play is needed...but I would find it extremely difficult to "model the mind of the experts" on that one - since I lack the necessary experience.
*goes to play chess...and beat his computer, incredibly*
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
You can't help but learn something by actually playing the games. You don't know what you don't know. The lack of practical experience limits insight. More so playing big bet vs fixed limit.
As observed, there are a lot of variants where the players have five cards and then draw. On top of that there are circus games where some part of the pot is awarded to the "best" five card draw hand but other parts go to other sorts of winning hands.
These are nuanced and sophisticated games. I suspect it would be an eye-opening experience to come to a meat-up and sit in some of the mixed games.
Not to be unreasonably rude, but I have to snicker at the notion of using "universal GTO" in obscure, poorly understood poker games. Hold'em is pretty well solved. The universe of five card draw variants are not solved at all.
Come join us at a meat-up. Have a good time. Learn things. and play with some really nice chips. But I think it likely you'll be paying tuition to the veteran circus players. -=- DrStrange
As observed, there are a lot of variants where the players have five cards and then draw. On top of that there are circus games where some part of the pot is awarded to the "best" five card draw hand but other parts go to other sorts of winning hands.
These are nuanced and sophisticated games. I suspect it would be an eye-opening experience to come to a meat-up and sit in some of the mixed games.
Not to be unreasonably rude, but I have to snicker at the notion of using "universal GTO" in obscure, poorly understood poker games. Hold'em is pretty well solved. The universe of five card draw variants are not solved at all.
Come join us at a meat-up. Have a good time. Learn things. and play with some really nice chips. But I think it likely you'll be paying tuition to the veteran circus players. -=- DrStrange
semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
I’d be doing more than just “paying tuition to the veterans” – I’d have to take out a mortgage for such a session!
*runs away humbled*
I’m greatly appreciative that you took the time to post your experiential insights for me and others. It’s not only the variants you mentioned that are “nuanced and sophisticated” – it’s experts like you; who could read (impractical) theorists like me like the proverbial “open book” (in live play).
That’s why I wouldn’t even attempt to write a Part 2 to my essay ever…there’s no way I’d be able to interwine practical and subtle manipulative psychology and observation with all the statistical analysis from “Part 1”. As you imply (I presume), it’s our sub-conscious mind where most learning takes place – after years of deliberate experience with the cards, and social interaction, especially.
aha…although I take no offence, personally, at your “snickering at [5CD] GTO”, kindly note that I’ve utilized statistics from renowned players Mike Caro and (the late) Nesmith Ankeny, as my basis for “break-even” analysis…. [It could be argued, however, that I probably haven’t interpreted them correctly, perhaps.]
I thought it was overall a good summary and compilation of good information
I do personally like having a baseline strategy to go Off of, general rules of thumb to play by. I’ll re read and compare with Caros advice and implement if/when we do a set limit night.
I think overall the advice looks sound, but like a lot of 5CD articles they don’t seem to emphasize position as much as I would think. Without any face cards there are GTO drawin strategies, but betting based off of position has to be key as it’s the only info being “shared”. This 20 pages is the “20 minutes to Learn” and position is a lifetime to master
I’m not sure if you’re aware, but 5CD is close to dead. No casinos have it, I don’t know where to find it online, and the only place I’ve seen it played is on this site a guy runs a $5 game at a nursing home where they play stud, draw, and Chicago.
I do personally like having a baseline strategy to go Off of, general rules of thumb to play by. I’ll re read and compare with Caros advice and implement if/when we do a set limit night.
I think overall the advice looks sound, but like a lot of 5CD articles they don’t seem to emphasize position as much as I would think. Without any face cards there are GTO drawin strategies, but betting based off of position has to be key as it’s the only info being “shared”. This 20 pages is the “20 minutes to Learn” and position is a lifetime to master
I’m not sure if you’re aware, but 5CD is close to dead. No casinos have it, I don’t know where to find it online, and the only place I’ve seen it played is on this site a guy runs a $5 game at a nursing home where they play stud, draw, and Chicago.
semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
Thanks so much for your careful consideration of it; I'm going to use your exact words: "baseline strategy to go off of, general rules of thumb to play by" from now on whenever I explain the purpose of beginner-to-intermediate GTO ... you hit it spot-on!
As for Caro [and Ankeny] ... I only utilized their massive collection of stats [not so much their concepts or their pure-bluff mathematical-balancing]; because their old-school California-cardroom game is for 8 players (as opposed to 5 or 6 only) - and with the semi-wild Joker, too. That drastically changes the dynamics from "today's" game. Which ... haha ... ironically - doesn't even EXIST anymore, as you say!
*tragic ... youngsters - and their 2-card Hold'em nowadays ...*
Although they do also provide a lot of useful stats for the non-Joker (52-card) standard game - but then they tie it to "Jacks-or-better".... Which, actually, is OK: my strategies essentially revolve around a rough JJ's-as-a-pivot-point kind of GTO, anyway, as you've read.
You see ... position really can't be taken into (full) account by learning players, since they just have statistics to go by for now; while trying to size-up their opponents and learn the nuances of the game - usually after about 2200 hands, fully. That's why, initially, one should not be too concerned about position - since opponents lie/deceive/slowplay/pure-bluff/semi-bluff - but inherent/raw statistics never do!
I also want beginners/intermediates to "stand their ground" - not become "timid hedgers" early on in their career.
*psychologically vital*
However, you - and a multitude of others - are correct about position taking a "lifetime to master"; but first ... let's get thru the stats-learning phase - for the next 2200 hands or so....
semisurrealonDA
Waiting List
Ironically, Caro would have labelled [at least back in the day...] a "no-Joker/no-Jacks or Better" game a "rare" game. I like the way you guys play; as you read...I don't like such extra or "arbitrary" rules, haha
Sadly, it's the casinos (whether brick-and-mortar [or steel-and-glass] or online casinos) that have weeded out the so-called "unprofitable" games like the classic 5CD. More rake - and a much larger table/clientele - for Hold'em nowadays.
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
.
My favorite literature:
•Thursday Night Poker - Peter O'Steiner
•Big Deal - Anthony Holden
•The Body Language Of Poker - Mike Caro
•Super/System 2 - Doyle Brunson
•The Theory Of Poker - David Sklansky
•Thursday Night Poker - Peter O'Steiner
•Big Deal - Anthony Holden
•The Body Language Of Poker - Mike Caro
•Super/System 2 - Doyle Brunson
•The Theory Of Poker - David Sklansky
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
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