Tourney Halloween "Zombie Resurrection" idea (2 Viewers)

[toynoob]

Is there a simulator or math genius to figure the odds of a suicide king coming up on a board per orbit? I mean if it only happens 1 of 30 hands I say we use 2 red king's, but if it's 1 of 10 then that's perfect.

 

[BGinGA]

Just have the Zombie throw in dead money every time a heart hits the felt. Three-heart flop? Zombie donates 3x to the pot. Two different players show a total of three hearts at showdown? Another 3x donation by the Zombie. Heart flush wins the hand? Bonus donation by the Zombie. Gotta be in the pot to collect (encouraging looser play, especially with hearts), but the Zombie donates regardless if in the hand or not. Penalty for having no heart-beat.....

Just imagine the chants of "heart! Heart!! HEART!!!"

An amount equal to the small blind seems appropriate. Also adds an element of randomness to the penalty.....

 

[Poker Zombie]

Is there a simulator or math genius to figure the odds of a suicide king coming up on a board per orbit? I mean if it only happens 1 of 30 hands I say we use 2 red king's, but if it's 1 of 10 then that's perfect.

Again, variable by how aggressive players in your game are. See a lot of full boards, more often. See few flops, far less often.

 

[toynoob]

Again, variable by how aggressive players in your game are. See a lot of full boards, more often. See few flops, far less often.

Let's get the math for 9 hands seeing all 5 cards

 

[Blind Joe]

Joe position in poker is more important than the actual 2 cards in your hand. So the guy in position of the zombie who just bled his ante has a high % of always winning the pot. That would be unfair to the other players. We need it more randomized but not insanely difficult to remember/figure out

Not simple enough

I know this might be frustrating but I can't figure out who you mean when you say "the guy who has position of the zombie" or when @BGinGA said "the repeating player".

The player in position of the zombie is the player to his left, yes? If the zombie ante is posted on the button then isn't the player in position of the zombie the SB? If that's not correct, can you tell me where the advantaged player is sitting in relation to the zombie (assuming the zombie has the button).

Next, why would this player have a better chance of winning the pot?

Thanks for your patience!

 

[detroitdad]

@Azcat

This sounds like a great concept for our Halloween game in OCT when we use the BRPRO zombie chips.

 

[toynoob]

@Blind Joe if the zombie is the button he would be in the best seat to win the most pots. You could argue the seat to the right would have a great chance to raise big enough to get zombie to fold his ante and steal the pot.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Positional advantage of a single orbit "bleed" is lessened when there are multiple zombies in play.

If the "bleed" is paid when the zombie is on the button, zombie has position on his own ante.

I think a zombie button ante is the easiest with free or low-cost rebuys (so eventually nearly everyone is eventually a zombie).

 

[toynoob]

Positional advantage of a single orbit "bleed" is lessened when there are multiple zombies in play.

If the "bleed" is paid when the zombie is on the button, zombie has position on his own ante.

I think a zombie button ante is the easiest with free or low-cost rebuys (so eventually nearly everyone is eventually a zombie).

I was going to make my $50 buy in a $20 rebuy, but you make a good point if it's really low rebuy, almost everyone will rebuy. I also want to find the sweet spot though where it's unlimited and people can empty their wallets with no lvl restraint. I want a 7-8 zombie apocalypse marathon. $20 may be to high, what about $15

 

[BGinGA]

@Blind Joe if the zombie is the button he would be in the best seat to win the most pots. You could argue the seat to the right would have a great chance to raise big enough to get zombie to fold his ante and steal the pot.

And regardless of which seat the zombie always posts the dead money ante from, there will always be ONE player (and the same player, every time) who has that 'best position' seat advantage over the rest of the players. Hence, unfair.

Making the donation random and from multiple seats is best.

 

[Blind Joe]

Just have the Zombie throw in dead money every time a heart hits the felt. Three-heart flop? Zombie donates 3x to the pot. Two different players show a total of three hearts at showdown? Another 3x donation by the Zombie. Heart flush wins the hand? Bonus donation by the Zombie. Gotta be in the pot to collect (encouraging looser play, especially with hearts), but the Zombie donates regardless if in the hand or not. Penalty for having no heart-beat.....

Just imagine the chants of "heart! Heart!! HEART!!!"

An amount equal to the small blind seems appropriate. Also adds an element of randomness to the penalty.....

I like this idea and the way it randomises the zombie ante (since even if I don't understand why, the consensus seems to be that the ante always being posted in the same position is an advantage to some and disadvantage to others).

The only thing I would question is how many times the ante is paid. The way you've described sounds like the zombie would be bleeding his stack quite a lot (maybe multiple times per hand) in comparison to only once per orbit. I'd perhaps make it a maximum of once per hand for the first heart dealt on the flop, but even that seems like the zombie could see a few bad flops in a row and be decimated.

@Blind Joe if the zombie is the button he would be in the best seat to win the most pots. You could argue the seat to the right would have a great chance to raise big enough to get zombie to fold his ante and steal the pot.

So it's the zombie who has the advantage? I thought you were referring to a player other than the zombie. I understand that anyone on the button has the best positional advantage. Does paying an ante on the button give a player even more advantage than if they were on the button with no ante?

 

[toynoob]

You could argue the seat to the right would have a great chance to raise big enough to get zombie to fold his ante and steal the pot.

 

[Blind Joe]

So pre-flop, the cutoff has positional advantage? Because the button has posted a forced bet, this makes the cutoff the de facto button in this pre-flop scenario and grants him the advantage that would normally be enjoyed by the real button. Have I understood correctly?

 

[toynoob]

So pre-flop, the cutoff has positional advantage? Because the button has posted a forced bet, this makes the cutoff the de facto button in this pre-flop scenario and grants him the advantage that would normally be enjoyed by the real button. Have I understood correctly?

You can see the light sir

 

[Blind Joe]

I'm trying to think about how big this advantage is and how much it would affect things (basically, how unfair it actually is) so I can work out if it's worth implementing a more complex but fairer bleed method.

So, the player sat to the right of the zombie would have positional advantage pre-flop once per orbit when in the cutoff. The more humans are turned to zombies, the more players share this advantage. The BB would still be last to act pre-flop and the zombie would still be last to act post-flop when on the button.

Is this once-an-orbit pre-flop discrepancy definitely something that needs to be eliminated?

 

[toynoob]

I'm trying to think about how big this advantage is and how much it would affect things (basically, how unfair it actually is) so I can work out if it's worth implementing a more complex but fairer bleed method.

So, the player sat to the right of the zombie would have positional advantage pre-flop once per orbit when in the cutoff. The more humans are turned to zombies, the more players share this advantage. The BB would still be last to act pre-flop and the zombie would still be last to act post-flop when on the button.

Is this once-an-orbit pre-flop discrepancy definitely something that needs to be eliminated?

No hence I like the suicide king idea you had

 

[toynoob]

So we have a perfect IMO way now to have average one in 10 hands all zombies posting a blind on a random persons BB/SB etc

 

[Blind Joe]

No hence I like the suicide king idea you had

That wasn't my idea, I'm not sure who mentioned that.

 

[toynoob]

That wasn't my idea, I'm not sure who mentioned that.

O ok sorry, whoever mentioned gets mad credit bc now I can move forward. To me this is a perfect scenario. Do we want the ante equal to sb or bb discussion next

 

[Poker Zombie]

I was going to make my $50 buy in a $20 rebuy, but you make a good point if it's really low rebuy, almost everyone will rebuy. I also want to find the sweet spot though where it's unlimited and people can empty their wallets with no lvl restraint. I want a 7-8 zombie apocalypse marathon. $20 may be to high, what about $15

It depends on how tight your players are with their money.

I digging into my data I have this...

I average 17 players @ $20 per.
Typical game gets 6 rebuys at @ $20
Once a year we have a freezeout event. Players eliminated get $3 free into a 25¢-25¢ cash game (payouts are rounded down to the next $5 increment). We average slightly over 1 player a year that refuses the free $3.
Records indicate that 5.4 players (on average) are knocked out with less than an hour before the bubble breaks. A starting stack at 60 minutes before the bubble is appx 5 BB.

I would give a $20 rebuy (during the rebuy period) a normal (non-zombie) stack.
A $5 rebuy could be any time that a non-zombie player is felted (even into the money levels)
The $5 goes to the last surviving human.

For $5 I would assume 2 players would not take the zombie rebuy (based off the free $3 history).
I anticipate 5 humans to run super deep and either not need the rebuy, or would also refuse it because they'd get < 5 BB, with an hour before the bubble bursts. Kind of -EV to play so short with a longshot of making the money,

Plugging that into my spreadsheet the payouts would be:
1st $200
2nd $110
3rd $70
4th $40
5th $20
Last Human $50

 

[toynoob]

It depends on how tight your players are with their money.

I digging into my data I have this...

I average 17 players @ $20 per.
Typical game gets 6 rebuys at @ $20
Once a year we have a freezeout event. Players eliminated get $3 free into a 25¢-25¢ cash game (payouts are rounded down to the next $5 increment). We average slightly over 1 player a year that refuses the free $3.
Records indicate that 5.4 players (on average) are knocked out with less than an hour before the bubble breaks. A starting stack at 60 minutes before the bubble is appx 5 BB.

I would give a $20 rebuy (during the rebuy period) a normal (non-zombie) stack.
A $5 rebuy could be any time that a non-zombie player is felted (even into the money levels)
The $5 goes to the last surviving human.

For $5 I would assume 2 players would not take the zombie rebuy (based off the free $3 history).
I anticipate 5 humans to run super deep and either not need the rebuy, or would also refuse it because they'd get < 5 BB, with an hour before the bubble bursts. Kind of -EV to play so short with a longshot of making the money,

Plugging that into my spreadsheet the payouts would be:
1st $200
2nd $110
3rd $70
4th $40
5th $20
Last Human $50

My guys are pretty tight we do $25 KO $5 of it in bounty.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm trying to think about how big this advantage is and how much it would affect things (basically, how unfair it actually is) so I can work out if it's worth implementing a more complex but fairer bleed method.

Is this once-an-orbit pre-flop discrepancy definitely something that needs to be eliminated?

The player with positional advantage has that advantage OVER EVERY OTHER PLAYER for the duration of the hand. It is significant, and imo, is sufficient grounds to not have the zombie post the ante from the same position every orbit (regardless of whether it's the bb, utg, button, or other). The same player will benefit (vs the other players) every time it's posted.

Best approach -- in terms of fairness -- is to have the Zombie add dead money on every hand (everybody gets the positional advantage eventually, as the button moves around the table). Second-best is to have it be added randomly per orbit (once, twice, or whatever). Worst -- by far -- is to have it added from the same seat once per orbit.

 

[Blind Joe]

The player with positional advantage has that advantage OVER EVERY OTHER PLAYER for the duration of the hand. It is significant, and imo, is sufficient grounds to not have the zombie post the ante from the same position every orbit (regardless of whether it's the bb, utg, button, or other). The same player will benefit (vs the other players) every time it's posted.

I feel like I'm getting more confused now lol. In ordinary play the button has positional advantage over all other players for the duration of the hand, yes? It's been said that when the zombie posts an ante from the button, the positional advantage goes to the cutoff pre-flop, even though the BB will be last to act. How does the cutoff still have advantage post flop when the zombie is last to act?

Best approach -- in terms of fairness -- is to have the Zombie add dead money on every hand (everybody gets the positional advantage eventually, as the button moves around the table). Second-best is to have it be added randomly per orbit (once, twice, or whatever). Worst -- by far -- is to have it added from the same seat once per orbit.

I'm all for doing it the random way once per orbit if I can understand how to implement it. Let's say the zombie is sat mid position when the trigger occurs, eg a heart comes out on the flop. The zombie now has to post a post-flop ante from mid position? Does that mean everyone else now has to call the ante to remain in the hand?

 

[toynoob]

I feel like I'm getting more confused now lol. In ordinary play the button has positional advantage over all other players for the duration of the hand, yes? It's been said that when the zombie posts an ante from the button, the positional advantage goes to the cutoff pre-flop, even though the BB will be last to act. How does the cutoff still have advantage post flop when the zombie is last to act?


I'm all for doing it the random way once per orbit if I can understand how to implement it. Let's say the zombie is sat mid position when the trigger occurs, eg a heart comes out on the flop. The zombie now has to post a post-flop ante from mid position? Does that mean everyone else now has to call the ante to remain in the hand?

I believe what Dave is trying to say is the actual seat at the table may not determine the positional advantage. If every player was equally skilled then yes the seat would matter. But if you have a solid grinder in MP he may have the best position to make money from the zombie bleed. And with that never changing it's unfair.

 

[Blind Joe]

I believe what Dave is trying to say is the actual seat at the table may not determine the positional advantage. If every player was equally skilled then yes the seat would matter. But if you have a solid grinder in MP he may have the best position to make money from the zombie bleed. And with that never changing it's unfair.

OK. Does the fact that more humans will turn into zombies as the game progresses change anything?

 

[toynoob]

OK. Does the fact that more humans will turn into zombies as the game progresses change anything?

Yes it does, it makes it a huge bloated pot that everyone will want to win. So zombies should eat humans faster, which means more buy ins, bigger prize pool

 

[WedgeRock]

@Azcat

This sounds like a great concept for our Halloween game in OCT when we use the BRPRO zombie chips.

We've been discussing it by email for about a week, LOL.

 

[Blind Joe]

Yes it does, it makes it a huge bloated pot that everyone will want to win. So zombies should eat humans faster, which means more buy ins, bigger prize pool

Let me rephrase that. @BGinGA says having the zombie post an ante from the same position each orbit is "the worst approach by far" in terms of fairness. Would it be a fair assumption that as more players become zombies that unfairness decreases since other players will find themselves sat next to zombies posting button antes rather than just one.

I don't want to adopt the worst approach in terms of fairness but I also want to adopt an approach that is manageable and, to an extent, simple.

 

[detroitdad]

I would say that I'm back to about 50/50 for playing in the next two league games. I met with the scheduler of the football games. I "think" he is going to hook me up. I have seniority, so he doesn't think it will be a problem. We'll see though.

 

[WedgeRock]

Is there a simulator or math genius to figure the odds of a suicide king coming up on a board per orbit?

Check my math, but it should be 1-(51/52*50/51*49/50*48/49*46/48) which equals about a 10% chance of the suicide King hitting a full, 5-card board.