Did I make the right call here as a dealer? (3 Viewers)

[Preditor]

I was playing in a tournament and a dedicated dealer. On a hand I wasn't in, this happened heads up between two players.

PLAYER 1 (Pam) was BB. Older woman. A very recreational player. But kind of serious type. The kind of person who doesn't know what she doesn't know.
PLAYER 2 (Stellan) was on the button. He is a good player.

If I remember correctly, there was button limps and BB calls pre-flop, and they check down to the river. But the river is where the action is.

Community cards are K82 / J / 8

Blinds are 600. On the river, Pam bets T300. I tell her she has to put out 600, but before she fully understands, Stellan declares a call.

I try to tell Pam why she needs to complete her bet. She does and... just holds onto her cards. She is the last aggressor and should show, but she just sits there.

I am about to say "Show me a winner" when Stellan decides to just turn over his hand. He has K6o.

Pam's still sitting there like a deer in headlights. I give her about 10 seconds or so, and she is just silent, looking at Stellan's hand.

I finally say, "Can you beat his King?" To which she says, "No".

Thinking the hand is over, I start to rake in the cards, and Stellan starts to collect hit pot. At this point Pam goes, "What are you doing? I have three 8s!" She turns over her hand with 10/8o.

I tell her I am sorry, but she essentially verbally mucked her cards. The flop and Stellan's cards are still visible, but in a pile now. I tell her she mucked her hand verbally, that I asked her if she could beat his King. She says, "Yea, that because I couldn't beat a king. I had three 8's though!" (I am as confused as you are).

I feel bad for her, but I hold to my position. She is incredibly angry and upset though saying that I raked in the cards far too quickly before she had a chance to show. I tell her in that scenario she just needs to turn her cards over.

Did I make the right call? Is a "verbal muck" a thing? Should I have waited for her to push her cards forward? Does "Cards speak" apply if you can see the cards technically, but they're in the process of being raked together?

 

[Rieguy]

I finally say, "Can you beat his King?" To which she says, "No".

Thinking the hand is over, I start then to rake in the cards, and Stellan starts to collect hit pot. At this point Pam goes, "What are you doing? I have three 8s!" She turns over her hand with 10/8o.

I tell her I am sorry, but she essentially verbally mucked her cards.

She did not 'verbally muck' her hand. She should have either been forced to flip her cards at showdown or physically muck them.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

TL;DR: She deserves the pot, she has the winning hand and at showdown, after all betting, she should be able to show and claim the pot.

Tougher than some spots, but with a recreational player at showdown I would definitely look for her to show first. She's not saying "no" and not showing her hand because she's hiding info, it seems like she just misunderstood the bet sizing and froze while betting 1 big blind.

Especially when I as the dealer get "involved" (calling for her to complete the bet, bet full amount) I slow everything down and will ensure it all gets done. If we want to be perfectly by the rules I ask her to show first since she had her bet called and its showdown. I know things happen in the heat of the moment but I would want a physical fold before shipping the pot. That order of events doesn't affect every hand but when it does, its a pain in the ass.

Take P2s hand and put it above the board, while motioning for her to physically muck. Pot doesn't get shipped until there's only one live hand and its the winner. I'm not as confused as you, cards speak and they've spoken. We can laugh about her wording for sure, players are goofy, but she had the winning hand the whole time and proved it.

With her still holding the clearly winning hand I give her the pot 100% of the time. 100%. It is clearly discernible, the board and P2's hands are known, this is definitely the pot going to her and explaining why the confusion happened. I don't know what she thought you said or what but its a home game and she's a rec still holding her hand.

 

[KHarp1]

Without getting into the technical intricacies I would say that I would have asked if she's folding, followed by a request to show her hand if she's not folding.

From what you described you appear to be in the wrong. She didn't declare that she folded, you obviously saw the confusion and awarded the pot to the losing hand. Saying she can't beat a K is not a fold.

 

[WedgeRock]

Agreed. Wait until she tables her hand or discards it.

I think you tried to do what was right to keep the game moving after she said she couldn't beat a king (you should have asked if she could hear a pair of kings), but especially in a rec game with a rec player, wait for her cards to be tabled or discarded.

 

[Preditor]

Agreed. Wait until she tables her hand or discards it.

I think you tried to do what was right to keep the game moving after she said she couldn't beat a king (you should have asked if she could hear a pair of kings), but especially in a rec game with a rec player, wait for her cards to be tabled or discarded.

Yea, I take ownership of the second part. I felt pressure to keep the game moving and looks like I acted pre-maturely. Just when she said, "No" it felt pretty clear cut "I can't beat him" and therefore a muck.

Looks like consensus is I was in the wrong here. Will definitely keep that in mind.

 

[Rakrul]

Yeah, you did her wrong. There's no such thing as a verbal muck. I also move the mucked hand into the muck pile before I award a pot.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

Pot is hers but I would say she inadvertently Slow Rolled

 

[Irish]

Yeah "verbal mucking" isn't a thing. Appreciate you trying to keep things moving, but in this scenario her "no" to "can you beat a king?" should be followed by a "are you folding?" to encourage her finishing the action. Don't touch the board until it's very clear the play is over.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Yeah, you did her wrong. There's no such thing as a verbal muck. I also move the mucked hand into the muck pile before I award a pot.

This brings up a good thought. SO: showdown happens and someone says "Na, you win". But doesn't pitch her cards forward. They then throw them face up towards the muck but clearly wins. They just win, right? Just a slow roll?

I agree with you. I'm just adding the hypothetical that makes it clear that there's no way to "fold" during showdown, only mucking. I separate the two in my head. This is partially why its dangerous when someone just verbally declares a hand. They say "flush", I'll say "I can't beat that" but won't muck until they show it down. Prove it!

 

[dizzyChipper]

This brings up a good thought. SO: showdown happens and someone says "Na, you win". But doesn't pitch her cards forward. They then throw them face up towards the muck but clearly wins. They just win, right? Just a slow roll?

I agree with you. I'm just adding the hypothetical that makes it clear that there's no way to "fold" during showdown, only mucking. I separate the two in my head.

They win. Face up is tabled. Dealer has to read hand. Muck a loser. Pay a winner.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

They win. Face up is tabled. Dealer has to read hand. Muck a loser. Pay a winner.

Agreed. Less of me offering up a tough situation, more of me adding context to "verbal muck" not existing.

 

[FestiveKnight]

I am far from an expert and I agree with what others have said that you’re in the wrong. I’d add another detail though, that I think asking if she beats a king is also maybe too much from you.

He happens to have shown his hand, but action is on her to table her hand for showdown or muck it. There’s nothing else. Your job is just to prompt that. Not to interpret for her if she beats the king. Idk maybe that’s a standard thing to do but seems off to me

 

[Rakrul]

To be fair though, he was just trying to speed things up. Just chalk it up under experience and you learned how to handle showdowns in the future. Pretty much all the rules at this points are made to avoid weird or tough situations, based on someone's experience.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Merely saying you can't beat a hand isn't a "verbal muck."

I have had to deal with drunken players who stall at showdown in my (unraked) home/club game, mostly dealer's choice with big-hand games.

One player in particular likes to sit there with his cards in his hand and his mouth half-open at showdown, furrowing his brow and trying to figure out his hand. Worth noting he's been drinking all night, and we're playing more complicated games than Hold'em, but everyone else seems to understand the concept of tabling their hand. Not this guy. Only person I've ever played with who finds a way to tank at showdown, even as multiple players practically shout in his face to just table his (fucking) cards.

I've had occasions where he eventually puts his cards down face-down as if to concede, and then I start splitting/awarding the pot and pulling in the board.

Then, a few moments later, "Wait, I think I had a flush!" Now he's trying to grab his cards back, even as the board is being broken down and the winners are stacking their new chips. It pissed me off a few times, enough that I decided to never let it happen again.

Now, if he puts down his cards or says something like, "I can't beat that," I ask if he is conceding. If yes, I ask him to give up the cards or grab them from where he put them, and I immediately shove them deep into the muck.

That is what you should have done here. Her saying she couldn't beat kings wasn't enough. You basically killed her hand against her will. It's partly on her for the stupid response to your question, but stupid shit like this is why it's such a big benefit to have a dealer.

 

[TheBigTater]

Not piling on here but “verbally mucked” is not a thing. Until the cards are thrown in to the dealer “mucked” her hand is live even if she slow rolled. Don’t ask “can you beat xxx” just tell her to table her hand it’s showdown. You acted wrong.

At showdown just table you cards people. There is no more action. Anything else is just theatrics

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Not piling on here but “verbally mucked” is not a thing. Until the cards are thrown in to the dealer “mucked” her hand is live even if she slow rolled. Don’t ask “can you beat xxx” just tell her to table her hand it’s showdown. You acted wrong.

At showdown just table you cards people. There is no more action. Anything else is just theatrics

Noobs are annoying with this, but not nearly as frustrating as regs/competent players who just wait for others to show after their bet gets called. It's exhausting, just immediately show down in turn. No one cares that you bluffed with A3o.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Not piling on here but “verbally mucked” is not a thing. Until the cards are thrown in to the dealer “mucked” her hand is live even if she slow rolled. Don’t ask “can you beat xxx” just tell her to table her hand it’s showdown. You acted wrong.

At showdown just table you cards people. There is no more action. Anything else is just theatrics

I've found "Show me a winner!" to be the easiest and safest thing to say as a dealer at showdown. (Advising a player to table is considered improper in my experience, though TBH I don't really see the problem.)

I agree wholeheartedly about people tabling their cards. Just table them—all of them. Some of the most pointless issues in all of poker arise because of people being stubborn or careless about this at showdown. They don't want to show, or don't want to show first, or only want to show one card, for no real benefit to themselves or anyone. Meanwhile, the whole table is waiting to get on to the next hand.

Just. Table. Your. Fucking. Cards.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Noobs are annoying with this, but not nearly as frustrating as regs/competent players who just wait for others to show after their bet gets called. It's exhausting, just immediately show down in turn. No one cares that you bluffed with A3o.

I will usually give it a few seconds if someone snaps off a bluff on the end (I would rather not show, just like anyone), but if the person doesn't show in that short window, I'll just table them or verbalize that I only have 10-high or whatever. Really no point in dragging out showdown. There's poker to be played.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Just. Table. Your. Fucking. Cards.

I will usually give it a few seconds if someone snaps off a bluff on the end (I would rather not show, just like anyone)

Take your own advice! Embrace the 10-high! Just. Table. Your. Cards.

 

[elPadroni]

Her hand is live until she physically mucks them. She turns over the winner, regardless of what she said or did prior to that. Pot should be hers IMO.

 

[WedgeRock]

Yeah, you did her wrong. There's no such thing as a verbal muck. I also move the mucked hand into the muck pile before I award a pot.

Even at the casino, you can say, "Fold" and the dealer won't award the pot until you release your cards.

 

[Frode789]

Always show or muck the cards at show down. Verbally announcing your hand isn't binding, as per TDA.

But: We frequently use "fold" verbally during play, and it is just as binding as "call" in our games. We self deal, so sometimes you might be busy shuffling or other matters that you use both hands for, but you have already seen your cards and was ready to fold, so it's easier and keeps the game flowing faster by just stating fold and then once able, push the cards into the muck.

 

[KHarp1]

I may be wrong, but I believe "fold" to be as binding as "call", "raise" or "all in."

My rationale is if you're three handed (or more) and a person says fold it can influence action, therefore, "fold" needs to be considered as binding.

 

[GamingWithChips]

To reiterate above...

When people get funny or all shy about their hand at showdown and then hide their cards or ask "what ya got? " and then wait and wait and delay and wait for the other person to show and then someone goes "what are the rules, who has to show first?" and then they discuss more...

My tolerance for time with players not showing cards at show down is about 2 seconds. Just show your cards! It's like the saying "no one cares what you folded" (although I'm guilty of that sometimes lol)

Like someone else said, by just showing cards you can avoid many of these "rulings" that people are forced to try and make for each other.

 

[WedgeRock]

I may be wrong, but I believe "fold" to be as binding as "call", "raise" or "all in."

I think that's true when facing action. At showdown, there is no more action.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Take your own advice! Embrace the 10-high! Just. Table. Your. Cards.

By "a few seconds," I genuinely mean a few seconds. Like barely enough time to take a full breath. I never play showdown chicken or any of that other stalling stuff people do. Just giving the other guy with a real hand a very brief opportunity to show before me.

But even so, fair criticism.

 

[Machine]

Alright, I'm going to let loose, because you deserve it
I'm flaming you, but I'm also giving you the actual answers, try to read this with a hint of humor, but not too much.

I was playing in a tournament and a dedicated dealer.

Why? Do you hate dealers? Couldn't you respect the profession and players enough to pick one?

I am about to say "Show me a winner" when Stellan decides to just turn over his hand. He has K6o.

That's fine, better would have been "Ma'am, he called you, watch'ya got?"

I finally say, "Can you beat his King?" To which she says, "No".

"Okay, did you want to table your hand or fold?"
Let her know her options

Thinking the hand is over, I start then to rake in the cards, and Stellan starts to collect hit pot.

NUMBER 1 - Players don't collect shit, the dealer pushes the pot. Tell Stan to sit the fuck down

At this point Pam goes, "What are you doing? I have three 8s!" She turns over her hand with 10/8o.
I tell her I am sorry, but she essentially verbally mucked her cards.

ARE YOU HIGH ON COCAINE?!?!?
CARDS SPEAK, (once tabled)

The flop and Stellan's cards are still visible, but in a pile now.

WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK?!
It's your mistake, and it is before the cards are shuffled for the next hand, FIX your mistake

I tell her she mucked her hand verbally, that I asked her if she could beat his King.

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL DEGENS IS "MUCKED HAND VERBALLY?" (she didn't say fold) Also, can I get your supplier? Because shit this good, I can't be missing out on!

No you didn't make the right call.
We all make mistakes, typically not this bad, but hey learn from it and thank her for your lession, also buy her a coffee or chocolate, something to appologise with, better yet, get her buy in for the next one.

Now what needs to happen is, you find the guy who let you deal, and you report to his manager that he needs to be replaced for letting you deal..... hahaha

Hopefully it was a cheap tourny, at least it was a tourny and not cash.

Next time you need to call the TD (tourny director or floor) and ask how to proceed, no need to be a dick, that is the TD's job.

 

[WedgeRock]

Alright, I'm going to let loose, because you deserve it
I'm flaming you, but I'm also giving you the actual answers, try to read this with a hint of humor, but not too much.


Why? Do you hate dealers? Couldn't you respect the profession and players enough to pick one?


That's fine, better would have been "Ma'am, he called you, watch'ya got?"


"Okay, did you want to table your hand or fold?"
Let her know her options


NUMBER 1 - Players don't collect shit, the dealer pushes the pot. Tell Stan to sit the fuck down


ARE YOU HIGH ON COCAINE?!?!?
CARDS SPEAK, (once tabled)


WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK?!
It's your mistake, and it is before the cards are shuffled for the next hand, FIX your mistake

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL DEGENS IS "MUCKED HAND VERBALLY?" (she didn't say fold) Also, can I get your supplier? Because shit this good, I can't be missing out on!

No you didn't make the right call.
We all make mistakes, typically not this bad, but hey learn from it and thank her for your lession, also buy her a coffee or chocolate, something to appologise with, better yet, get her buy in for the next one.

Now what needs to happen is, you find the guy who let you deal, and you report to his manager that he needs to be replaced for letting you deal..... hahaha

Hopefully it was a cheap tourny, at least it was a tourny and not cash.

Next time you need to call the TD (tourny director or floor) and ask how to proceed, no need to be a dick, that is the TD's job.

The guy made a call, then had the humility and foresight to seek out advice here as to what the right thing to do was.

 

[Preditor]

Alright, I'm going to let loose, because you deserve it
I'm flaming you, but I'm also giving you the actual answers, try to read this with a hint of humor, but not too much.


Why? Do you hate dealers? Couldn't you respect the profession and players enough to pick one?


That's fine, better would have been "Ma'am, he called you, watch'ya got?"


"Okay, did you want to table your hand or fold?"
Let her know her options


NUMBER 1 - Players don't collect shit, the dealer pushes the pot. Tell Stan to sit the fuck down


ARE YOU HIGH ON COCAINE?!?!?
CARDS SPEAK, (once tabled)


WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK?!
It's your mistake, and it is before the cards are shuffled for the next hand, FIX your mistake

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL DEGENS IS "MUCKED HAND VERBALLY?" (she didn't say fold) Also, can I get your supplier? Because shit this good, I can't be missing out on!

No you didn't make the right call.
We all make mistakes, typically not this bad, but hey learn from it and thank her for your lession, also buy her a coffee or chocolate, something to appologise with, better yet, get her buy in for the next one.

Now what needs to happen is, you find the guy who let you deal, and you report to his manager that he needs to be replaced for letting you deal..... hahaha

Hopefully it was a cheap tourny, at least it was a tourny and not cash.

Next time you need to call the TD (tourny director or floor) and ask how to proceed, no need to be a dick, that is the TD's job.

Hey, I am not saying I don't deserve it. It seems consensus is I made a mistake, and I'll own it.

But I'll also provide some additional context.

In this game, we almost always have a player in seat 1 dedicate deal. We're pretty consistent about which players are allowed to do it, and which aren't.

Also in this game, I'm... kind of the TD? Technically the TD is the president of the lodge, but I assist him these days with a lot of tasks So I was running the computer (balancing tables, tracking knockouts, payouts, etc.). I am the person asking people to deal as they register. When I do this, I never assign myself to be a dealer because it is a lot to keep track of.

In our table? Our dealer got knocked out about 2 hours in. I was closest to the dealer seat, no one else wanted to do it, and we were the next table breaking. So I felt I had no choice but to step in for a while (begrudgingly).

Because our dealers are also players and it is a friendly game (not technically a home game, but a local Lodge game... so something in-between a Casino and a home game) we do take some liberties to keep the game moving. Players still shuffle from behind on the button. Players may start scooping pots before a dealer pushes it in. Etc.

When the hand happened, I DID call over another TD (who had busted out at this point) and he agreed with my ruling. I think this player does this type of thing a lot; innocently, but annoyingly and it slows things down. He basically told her, "Just turn over your cards next time."

Also after this hand, I told the table I didn't want to deal anymore. It was too much. So we split the responsibilities between two players.

All of that being said? I'll own the mistake and apologize to the person. My main mistake was offering to deal with all I was running other items in the tournament. I was just trying to help.