PAHWM: Online PLO20 6max (1 Viewer)

[MrCatPants]

You were behind but it's nice that you hit. Also the river shove, although it worked, is dangerous. He's as likely to have a hand like AKQ10 with clubs as an AAxx hand with this line. Also, you're bluff catching this river at this stack depth versus shoving, IMO.

 

[Gunnar]

Just because you hit does not mean it was right. Nice pot but look at the math you are torching money if you play this way.

 

[Gunnar]

Maybe I’m being a bummer, it is just as a general advise we should have gotten away there. What are we doing if the river is J? Club?

There can be profit made playing like this if you have very strong discipline In folding and if you are ready bluffing your stack from time to time to give people a reason to call when you ship that river. But playing Omaha with limited to no nut draws when UTG is firing at you every street is a dangerous game

 

[mipevi]

You were behind but it's nice that you hit. Also the river shove, although it worked, is dangerous. He's as likely to have a hand like AKQ10 with clubs as an AAxx hand with this line. Also, you're bluff catching this river at this stack depth versus shoving, IMO.

Personally I don't think those two hands are as likely with his line, and I've recently played close to 40k hands in these games. Not sure I follow that last part, are you saying I should have check/called river?

Just because you hit does not mean it was right. Nice pot but look at the math you are torching money if you play this way

Respectfully disagree. I'm well aware of the math, but UTG does not open and cbet flop with only AAxx here. Now if I knew he had AAxx I would just fold the flop, but his range there is wider. And if I didn't catch a good turn card, that street would have been a check/fold from me.

 

[mipevi]

Maybe I’m being a bummer, it is just as a general advise we should have gotten away there. What are we doing if the river is J? Club?

I already stated in an earlier post (or two posts) what hero could do on different rivers. A ja J are always a fold, all clubs except the 6 as well.

There can be profit made playing like this if you have very strong discipline In folding and if you are ready bluffing your stack from time to time to give people a reason to call when you ship that river. But playing Omaha with limited to no nut draws when UTG is firing at you every street is a dangerous game

This is certainly not a spot where we print, and I'm not claiming that. But I have experience in these games, and frankly know what I'm doing. The games you or someone else plays are always going to be different, and what I did here is not going to automatically apply.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I just see too many dangerous cards. Wonderful we got a great river and he didn't have the higher straight, but damn.

Do we do same play if its or ? What if the J pairs and we get a full house, we still feel vulnerable, right? Or a random brick , do we ever feel secure OOP with our lil set? We set the opponent up for a shove in position regardless of what falls, we just happened to like what fell.

I am just worried about ending up on an unsure river with less than pot sized bet. We're not getting good odds and the implied odds are still scary.

 

[mipevi]

Here's what I previously posted about different river cards. Not saying it's perfect, could change some small things for sure. The random brick is the hardest category, in the end I decided they should be folded.

So we have the remaining and as nut outs, non-nut outs consist of hearts except the and , which I would expect to win at showdown most of the time. Folding against any A or J on the river of course. If the river is a club and villain bets we just fold against his range, the exception would be , on that we can just get stacks in. On total blanks I expect we will lose our stack to sets but double up against top2, maybe that's ok. If we want to add some bluff outs to donk on the river, would make sense.

I'm not really sure about this part, it comes down to the ratio of AAxx/JJxx vs AJxx w/ nfd UTG has here... If it's too heavily weighted towards sets, we need to check/fold blanks. And I think that actually might be the case, given the villain is UTG, so many of the AJxx hands we'd like him to have would have just been folded pre.

Also, try to keep in mind, IRL I had much less time to decide what to do.

 

[MrCatPants]

Personally I don't think those two hands are as likely with his line, and I've recently played close to 40k hands in these games. Not sure I follow that last part, are you saying I should have check/called river?

Yes. I am shocked he called with that holding. With he/she having clubs and top set locked up it really leans you heavily towards straight wraps that got home. I think the odds of him bluff-stabbing with that holding are higher than calling a shove for like 2/3 pot.

That said, that last statement is close and I don't think your river shove is particularly faulted. Just that his hands he should fold to a shove plus his combo hands that actually got there is dangerous math to shove in with first.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Also, try to keep in mind, IRL I had much less time to decide what to do.

Ty. Of course! Its all easy when we get to see the cards and it isn't our money. Thanks for sharing, all just theoretical banter.

 

[mipevi]

Yes. I am shocked he called with that holding. With he/she having clubs and top set locked up it really leans you heavily towards straight wraps that got home. I think the odds of him bluff-stabbing with that holding are higher than calling a shove for like 2/3 pot.

That said, that last statement is close and I don't think your river shove is particularly faulted. Just that his hands he should fold to a shove plus his combo hands that actually got there is dangerous math to shove in with first.

Yes, villain calls too much and I exploited that by calling turn and betting river.

As for the combo draw hands, I expect mostly either weaker stabs or even check backs on the turn. So after villain basically pots the turn, they are not a big concern for me on the river.

These are my reads in these particular games and should be trusted as such. They absolutely do not apply in all PLO games, and I am not suggesting anyone else go play like this in another game. The reverse is also true. For example, you absolutely do not want to run GTO multi street bluffs in these games. It prints negative. Ask me how I know.

 

[JustinInMN]

You were behind but it's nice that you hit. Also the river shove, although it worked, is dangerous. He's as likely to have a hand like AKQ10 with clubs as an AAxx hand with this line. Also, you're bluff catching this river at this stack depth versus shoving, IMO.

The river shove is an interesting decision and I kind of get it. Hero has the second nuts, so it's a balance between how often he runs into the nuts versus how much he can collect from lesser holdings that he wouldn't collect by checking.

Given he got paid off by 3 aces is a definite tally in favor of the river shove, though granted we may not have had that data point at the time of the action, I would expect in a micro game that an unknown average player probably has difficulty laying down sets (or in extreme cases laying down aces up is hard) if they have the aforementioned hold'em brain.

Just because you hit does not mean it was right. Nice pot but look at the math you are torching money if you play this way

The error in using the odds calculator to make this point is you are plugging in one particular hand that is probably on the higher end of villain's range and not considering the range as a whole. (Which would take a more advanced a calculator than the Card Player one, granted.)

The question that I know I posed in multiple posts is how many two pair type holdings, or how many draw-type are in this range and is it enough to justify a call.

 

[davislane]

Thank you guys for the thoughtful analysis. Let's see what happened.


Hero calls turn.

I fully get that sometimes we might not even be good when we hit the river, but a good majority of the time I believe we will. I also believe UTG is going to have a hard time letting go of his hand against our outs, because most players focus too much on the front door flush draw when present, making our bet look like a bluff to them. So I think we have good implied odds, even knowing that we occasionally run into a better hand when we do hit.

River gives us the 2nd nut straight and the pot is now 106bb. At this point the play is trivial, so I'll just Finnish.



Hero (75.15bb) goes all-in
UTG (62.35bb) calls and shows

Ship it!

Unlucky break for UTG, but if he ever should find a fold on the river, this might be the time as he had the club draw himself and his hand doesn't block the straights in any way. But at these tables I see people using blockers mostly to justify betting, not really calling/folding.

So in the end you just donk shoved with the 2nd nuts..... NICE! We can play together any time!

All the nits of PCF must be losing their minds with your play especially after getting into weeds of how the hand "SHOULD" have been played.

This hand is what we call a banana special. You will find a seat at any PLO table down under!

 

[Anthony Martino]

So in the end you just donk shoved with the 2nd nuts..... NICE! We can play together any time!

All the nits of PCF must be losing their minds with your play especially after getting into weeds of how the hand "SHOULD" have been played.

This hand is what we call a banana special. You will find a seat at any PLO table down under!

I'm a nit and I don't think the play is terrible, just a spot where I don't think we have the equity against villains range to have this be profitable long-term

 

[mipevi]

So in the end you just donk shoved with the 2nd nuts..... NICE! We can play together any time!

All the nits of PCF must be losing their minds with your play especially after getting into weeds of how the hand "SHOULD" have been played.

This hand is what we call a banana special. You will find a seat at any PLO table down under!

I think this was one of the most interesting hands I have recently played, definitely not vanilla. Though given the river SPR I feel like even nits should be willing to commit with 2nd nuts LOL.

I'm no nit, happy to 4bet AKQ2r and stack off on a medium board just to F with people. I did this after I opened CO and BTN 3bet me, of course he hit a pair on the flop and it held. I'm sure he learned his lesson though!

 

[Anthony Martino]

I think this was one of the most interesting hands I have recently played, definitely not vanilla. Though given the river SPR I feel like even nits should be willing to commit with 2nd nuts LOL.

I'm no nit, happy to 4bet AKQ2r and stack off on a medium board just to F with people. I did this after I opened CO and BTN 3bet me, of course he hit a pair on the flop and it held. I'm sure he learned his lesson though!

Agree once we get to the river and make 2nd nuts I'm not folding.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero is getting stacked with the second nut vs nut anyway - shoving or check calling. But shoving gives villain a bigger chance to make a mistake vs checking and hoping he bets a third time.

While Hero might not have direct odds to call the turn, his implied odds put him over the top - at least in my mind. It isn't as though there is a proof what villain might do in the future.

However, we haven't discussed the costs of reverse implied odds from the turn call. I wonder if that turns the deal sour? ? ? ?

And yes, it was an interesting hand -=- DrStrange

 

[mipevi]

A hard decision may be coming. What to do if UTG pots? Hero is still in bad shape vs AAxx or JJxx, he is markedly better off than he was on the flop. The heart draw should be reasonably safe as the act of hearts is on the board. I am inclined to call a turn bet thinking top set might have to pay off a rivered flush or the nut straight.

Was just about to tag this, you called the play right after the turn card was revealed.

However, we haven't discussed the costs of reverse implied odds from the turn call. I wonder if that turns the deal sour? ? ? ?

I don't think this is a spot where we absolutely print, even if we know that villain is calling when we hit river. Sometimes he will have a better flush or a better straight, that's just a fact. We do block a T so for him to have AAKT is less likely. The Ah on the board means that when he has AAxx the xx needs to be better hearts than ours. I can't prove it, but in my estimation this was a profitable play, though I couldn't tell you by how much.

 

[davislane]

I'm no nit, happy to 4bet AKQ2r and stack off on a medium board just to F with people. I did this after I opened CO and BTN 3bet me, of course he hit a pair on the flop and it held. I'm sure he learned his lesson though!

 

[mipevi]

I don't think this is a spot where we absolutely print, even if we know that villain is calling when we hit river. Sometimes he will have a better flush or a better straight, that's just a fact. We do block a T so for him to have AAKT is less likely. The Ah on the board means that when he has AAxx the xx needs to be better hearts than ours. I can't prove it, but in my estimation this was a profitable play, though I couldn't tell you by how much.

To expand further, while it is quite difficult for AAxx to have us crushed in all directions, JJxx that does open from UTG is a different story. Those hands tend to be fairly connected and have suits, and the Jh is available. As mentioned before though, JJxx is a much smaller portion of villain's range than AAxx.

AJxx with nut club draw would need to dominate our straight draws again with just the remaining two xx cards, which makes it difficult. Jh is possible, so there is that, but with two clubs the last x card would need to be a heart as well. And at least here we actually have the better made hand.

Due to villain's turn bet sizing, I heavily discount drawing hands from his range. While those hands can easily dominate us with better straight draws, I would expect them to also have two clubs, so yet again the remaining two cards would need to be hearts.

So while we could be crushed sometimes and donk our stack off, I think it is much more likely that most of our draws on the turn are live.

 

[Timportant19]

I am starting with a challenge myself to train my PLO skills. Currently at PLO2 on GG and up 12 BI. Do you guys have any tips on how to train? What are the best starting points? Currently just freewheeling by putting the hours in..

 

[grandmeme]

So in the end you just donk shoved with the 2nd nuts..... NICE! We can play together any time!

All the nits of PCF must be losing their minds with your play especially after getting into weeds of how the hand "SHOULD" have been played.

This hand is what we call a banana special. You will find a seat at any PLO table down under!

You have a spot at my game any time... @Newenne you might have competition!

 

[grandmeme]

When you have bottom set and it's only 20 euros.. POT!!!!!!!!!

 

[mipevi]

I am starting with a challenge myself to train my PLO skills. Currently at PLO2 on GG and up 12 BI. Do you guys have any tips on how to train? What are the best starting points? Currently just freewheeling by putting the hours in..

Read a lot of material to gain an understanding of how PLO works, but don't blindly apply the advice on how to play exact hands/spots. Pick one or two things to focus on during a session to improve upon. Review your most interesting hands (usually the biggest pots) afterwards, thinking about different lines you could have taken, how they could have influenced the outcome and why. GL!

 

[Anthony Martino]

I am starting with a challenge myself to train my PLO skills. Currently at PLO2 on GG and up 12 BI. Do you guys have any tips on how to train? What are the best starting points? Currently just freewheeling by putting the hours in..

I always recommend reading Jeff Hwangs "The Big Play Strategy"

It will give you a solid foundational understanding of PLO, so you can avoid common mistakes new players make (especially those who think hands that are strong in hold em are also strong in PLO)

It will have you playing pretty tight, but that keeps you out of grouble while you learn

 

[eveamu1]

Which site do you play on mipevi? We are maybe in the same pool depending on where you play

 

[mipevi]

@eveamu1 I'm currently playing on a small iPoker network that combines players from (Finnish) Veikkaus and (Austrian) Win2Day.