PAHWM: Maximizing Value in PLO8

MrCatPants

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Don't want to spoil anything - but this is intended to be a discussion on maximizing value in PLO8 - thought this was an interesting hand in terms of betting and sizing.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
BB - ABC Player - $100
UTG - Competent player with shades of a calling station - $60
UTG + 1 - OMC - $50
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
CO - Competent by hyper-aggressive LAG bordering on maniac - $200
HJ - ABC Player - $60
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h:

Action on hero
 

Shaggy

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Just a call. Fold to a pot sized raise from SB... unless the whole table comes along. In that case, I am looking to flop gin... or I'm out.
 

upNdown

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Just a call. Fold to a pot sized raise from SB... unless the whole table comes along. In that case, I am looking to flop gin... or I'm out.
Nut flush possibilities, nut low possibilities but no back up low cards. I just call.
I agree with these guys. To me, this is a great hand to see a flop. But it isn’t a premium. I play pretty tight, preflop, in O8, and to me this is not a raising hand.
 

Kain8

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There's a reason why in yesteryear we called this game Death. Because it can kill your stack and your wallet.

Definitely limp.
 

MrCatPants

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Ok. Let's get to the more interesting parts.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
BB - ABC Player - $100
UTG - Competent player with shades of a calling station - $60
UTG + 1 - OMC - $50
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
CO - Competent by hyper-aggressive LAG bordering on maniac - $200
HJ - ABC Player - $60
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h: and CALLS
SB raises to $2
UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - folds

Pot at $7.50; action on hero facing a $1.50 raise.

(and this is in my opinion clearly a call with the number of players and shouldn't really be debated - so let me move the hand forward)

Hero calls

Flop comes - :qh::jh::8h:
Pot is $9

SB Checks
UTG + 2 Checks
UTG + 3 Checks
Action on hero.
 
Last edited:

upNdown

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Another thought I have, is that if we’re talking about maximizing value, I don’t hate a minraise here. My thinking is that chances are all those guys who flatted before us, will flat again to a min raise. It’s a cheap way of bloating a pot that we have a decent chance of splitting.
I guess the only reason I wouldnt do that, is that I think a minraise sort of announces to the table that we have an A.
WARNING - these are the crazy thoughts that go through my head and are in now way intended to be good strategic advice. I’m pretty much a break even O8 player.
 

MrCatPants

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Another thought I have, is that if we’re talking about maximizing value, I don’t hate a minraise here. My thinking is that chances are all those guys who flatted before us, will flat again to a min raise. It’s a cheap way of bloating a pot that we have a decent chance of splitting.
I guess the only reason I wouldnt do that, is that I think a minraise sort of announces to the table that we have an A.
WARNING - these are the crazy thoughts that go through my head and are in now way intended to be good strategic advice. I’m pretty much a break even O8 player.
I almost did that as a pot builder and keeping it hopefully 5-7 way to the flop.
 

Shaggy

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Well... you flopped gin I guess. Bet half pot. Hope someone has the nut flush or the board pairs. Hope either no lows... or a non-ace, non-two low comes.
 

Moxie Mike

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Don't want to spoil anything - but this is intended to be a discussion on maximizing value in PLO8 - thought this was an interesting hand in terms of betting and sizing.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
BB - ABC Player - $100
UTG - Competent player with shades of a calling station - $60
UTG + 1 - OMC - $50
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
CO - Competent by hyper-aggressive LAG bordering on maniac - $200
HJ - ABC Player - $60
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h:

Action on hero

This is one of those holdings in PLO8 that looks a lot better than it actually is. It's tempting to raise here with the nut spade/nut low capabilities, but nines and tens are the worst cards to hold in PLO8... and your A2 has no counterfeit protection. So just limp and see a flop in position.
 

Mojo1312

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Why call and then lose a street of value?

Players left in the hand:

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
UTG + 1 - OMC - $50
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40

Unsure how your group plays, whether they pot, make partial pot bets, or a combination of both. Bet $4
 

raynmanas

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flopping straight flushes is so goddamned fun.

half pot and pray for action seems about right for the flop. and just be sad if you take it down then and there.
 

Moxie Mike

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Ok. Let's get to the more interesting parts.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
BB - ABC Player - $100
UTG - Competent player with shades of a calling station - $60
UTG + 1 - OMC - $50
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
CO - Competent by hyper-aggressive LAG bordering on maniac - $200
HJ - ABC Player - $60
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h: and CALLS
SB raises to $2
UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - folds

Pot at $7.50; action on hero facing a $1.50 raise.

(and this is in my opinion clearly a call with the number of players and shouldn't really be debated - so let me move the hand forward)

Hero calls

Flop comes - :qh::jh::8h:

SB Checks
UTG + 2 Checks
UTG + 3 Checks
Action on hero.
So you flopped a straight flush and it checked to you on the button and your question is how do you extract max value?

The thing about PLO8 is that most hands that go to showdown will be split. The only true way to scoop is if the hand doesn't go to showdown, or if no low is possible.

Thinking about this particular hand, what might your opponents hold? The PF raiser probably holds a bunch of low cards and has bricked the flop. Same is likely true for the rest of the active hands. Since the PF raise was first to act and checked, no one else took the lead and subsequently checked behind. I think you can rule out anyone holding the ace-high flush.

So what do you extract value from by betting? Is anyone calling with just a straight here? Will anyone who flopped a set call stubbornly hoping for the board to pair?

It's an odd spot because you need to build a pot in order to place meaningful bets however at the same time you want to keep everyone in the hand. In this situation though, I think this flop and 100% missed everyone but you. So checking back is probably the safest play. A slightly risky play might be to bet like $2.50 as a potbuilder/please-call-me bet... but will anyone call with just backdoor low draws? Any bet might thin the field unnecessarily.

I think the best thing to do is hope a low card hits the turn to give people something to draw to. I think as an overarching strategy the way to extract value here is to get to showdown hoping to get 3/4ths or 4/6ths of the pot.
 

MatB

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This is always your advice.
4card PLO8

Max value is desired by OP. limping with nut nut possible hole cards is no good. IMO. Pot needs pot to be built up.

You want players to feel committed to that pot on the flop.

If OP doesn't raise pre with this hand. What hand would he raise pre with?
 

MatB

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but yeah... that is pretty much my standard advice..;)
 

JustinInMN

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I am fine with the play preflop, but to me, this hand is barely playable. It's really helped by being double suited. T9 is such a trouble combo in hi-lo though, and would almost never be playable without A2. I like the limp and the subsequent call of the small raise.

On the flop I think we have to bet and hope we run into the nut flush or maybe someone willing to make a loose call with a k-hi flush. There really isn't any more to it than that. A backdoor low can still cost us a quarter of the pot or in the worst case the whole low half if an A or 2 falls. Again this is part of why T9 is a trouble combo, even in this spot, it only makes a nut straight with boards that have at least one card toward a low qualifier.

But I think the bet is clear, we can hope for some loose action from the A and K flushes, that's about it. If those hands aren't out, then we probably have already "maximized value" as it is and only stand to lose a portion of the pot to backdoors.
 

Rhodeman77

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Bet 1/2 pot. Hopefully there is a set or someone has the Ace high flush to give you action. Also some people with backdoor low draws will still call too. If you want to get your stack in you need to start building the pot now.
 

MatB

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A and K flushes are losing their stack and that's not even loose play. Its 4 card PLO8..
 

Kain8

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Half pot now, pot turn, pot river allows us to get all-in very comfortably. Hope you get your max value as this goes on.
 

MrCatPants

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Alright, let's continue.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h: and CALLS
SB raises to $2
UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - folds

Pot at $7.50; action on hero facing a $1.50 raise.

(and this is in my opinion clearly a call with the number of players and shouldn't really be debated - so let me move the hand forward)

Hero calls

Flop comes - :qh::jh::8h:
Pot is $9

SB Checks
UTG + 2 Checks
UTG + 3 Checks
Hero CHECKS (thinking people need to catch up after almost betting 1/3 pot or so)

Turn brings - :qh::jh::8h::6c:

SB Checks
UTG +2 Bets 7
UTG +3 Calls 7

Pot is $23

Action on hero.
 

Shaggy

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For reasons already mentioned, I think the flop check is okay... I like the 1/2 pot bet better, but the check is second best in my view.

As played, I like a pot sized raise here. Perhaps that could be perceived as a nut low attempt to steal the pot... perhaps you have pocket 66. You have two players who have put money in on this street... hopefully one or both will call.
 

Moxie Mike

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Turn brings - :qh::jh::8h::6c:

SB Checks
UTG +2 Bets 7
UTG +3 Calls 7

Pot is $23

Action on hero.
Raise to $19. This will put $42 in the pot... laying 3.5-1 pot-odds to the first opponent to continue chasing the nut low draw. Hard to turn down those odds in a multiway pot. If this squeezes out the SB, that's just a unfortunate consequence of trying to build a pot.

As much as HERO would love to stack multiple opponents here, expectations must be realistic.
 

JustinInMN

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UTG + 3 Checks
Hero CHECKS (thinking people need to catch up after almost betting 1/3 pot or so
Yeah I suppose it's smart to see if a fourth heart comes off so the :Ah: can pay off or, wait a second, THIS IS OMAHA, there is no such thing as players "catching up" on a flush board. I suppose maybe players with sets may make a full house, that's the best case scenario, the worst case is hero gave a free pull to a backdoor low and may now lose at least a share of the low half.

Not to mention it's going to be tougher to play for stacks passing on a chance to bet.

As played at least someone bet the turn for us, but hero has to raise pot now.
 

MrCatPants

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Alright, let's continue.

.25/.50 online mavens game with my regular crew

SB - Ultimate TAG, strongest player at the table - $100
UTG + 2 - Semi-competent player who overvalues hands and thinks he is getting bluffed more often than he is - $60
UTG + 3 - Incompetent player who will push holdings like bottom 2 on straight draw/flush draw flops - $40
BTN - HERO, normally a LAG, perceived tonight as a drunk dumbass even though he hasn't been drinking but rather distracted by work while playing, most in the hole at the table - $70

UTG folds
UTG + 1 calls
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - calls
HJ - folds
BTN - looks down at :as: :2s::th::9h: and CALLS
SB raises to $2
UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 calls
UTG + 3 calls
CO - folds
Hero CALLS

Flop comes - :qh::jh::8h:

SB Checks
UTG + 2 Checks
UTG + 3 Checks
Hero CHECKS

Turn brings - :qh::jh::8h::6c:

SB Checks
UTG +2 Bets 7
UTG +3 Calls 7
Hero CALLS
SB Raises to 21
UTG +2 Folds
UTG +3 Folds
(no decision at all here, hero jams)
SB snap calls and turns over...

:ah::2d::6d::6s:

Yes, he's generally a TAG. River brings a :4d: and so we take 3/4 of the ~$150 pot.

Discuss and critique!
 

JustinInMN

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I mean mission accomplished you got the stack in.

Bad news you lost 1/4 of the pot. But I guess I can't argue that 3/4 of the bigger pot is better. A266 is a pretty iffy hand too, but he had the :ah: blocker which is interesting
 

Taghkanic

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I mean, 3/4 of a 300BB pot is pretty good. Too lazy to do the math... How much was the jam, effectively? 60 or so?
 
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