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Is Vegas dying? (4 Viewers)

justsomedude said:
I mean, it's not that complicated
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you're right, it's not complicated at all - it's pretty simple math. but like i said, casinos have quite a few knobs to twist when they're trying to dial in profit. and for most, their poker knob is pretty trivial.
 
Rakrul said:
I'm afraid Paulson is going to be closed down soon-ish, too. They primarily sell in the Americas and cheap plastic with higher security and electronic is taking over everywhere. There's no reason to keep producing them as they have a more expensive cost in a declining market with lower margins. And the casinos sure don't give a fuck about the looks of their tokens.
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The upside to this is the potential return of Paulson to the home market.

If casinos ultimately do rotate out of Angel/GPI chips entirely, would the manufacturing hardware be mothballed/scrapped? Or would some enterprising folks acquire it and put it to use to serve other/alternative markets?
 
justsomedude said:
The upside to this is the potential return of Paulson to the home market.

If casinos ultimately do rotate out of Angel/GPI chips entirely, would the manufacturing hardware be mothballed/scrapped? Or would some enterprising folks acquire it and put it to use to serve other/alternative markets?
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The legal, long term hassle for Angel/GPI to sell it off would be to big. They would just close it down and write off the loss. Or dump a ton of costs on it and declare bankruptcy. In theory I guess you could buy off the manufacturing from there, but isn't it in Mexico? And all the people and knowledge would be gone at that point.
 
Rakrul said:
The legal, long term hassle for Angel/GPI to sell it off would be to big. They would just close it down and write off the loss. Or dump a ton of costs on it and declare bankruptcy.
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Agreed. It would only be feasible once all casinos rotate out of clay chips. Which, could actually happen.
 
SixSpeedFury said:
This for sure. Ran into this experience last year when our family wanted to take our youngest to Disney World. Even when budgeting for a mid tier hotel, the price of the tickets ($130+ for one day tickets is absurd) and food and snacks, the total for a family of four was well north over $6k. Instead of going to Florida for that ridiculous amount, we went to France where we enjoyed Disneyland Paris, our oldest got to go a concert, and we visited London and Belgium for that same price. Disney World is no longer the most magical place on earth. At least for the high spenders, it is.
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Sad but true.

I live 30 minutes from WDW. My wife and I were annual passholders for over 15 years, even before we had kids. For a long time, it was a great value for locals, and we visited 10-15 times a year (usually for half a day or so).

They started increasing the prices significantly about 7-8 years ago, and we decided to take a break. Then came the COVID shutdown, and a huge spike in demand on reopening. Disney took advantage of this with more huge price increases and replacing free services like FastPass with paid equivalents.

The pass we used to pay about $400/yr for in 2017 is now almost $900. And that doesn't include the $15-40 PPPD for Genie+, which is effectively a requirement if you want to ride anything.

I miss it, but I honestly don't know if I'll ever go back.
 
BigGrizz said:
Well ya. Ticket prices are insane so its hard to fill it up. Its not actually on the strip or super convenient to get to. And I can't imagine the electricity and maintenance bill...
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I think the operating cost of running it is the big problem (both electricity and tons of necessary staff and maintenance) rather than attendance, but I only saw one report.

Just did a little more reading and the $1B+ in losses seems to be cumulative, rather than yearly, but since it hasn’t been open that long, still a huge number.
 
Rakrul said:
The legal, long term hassle for Angel/GPI to sell it off would be to big. They would just close it down and write off the loss. Or dump a ton of costs on it and declare bankruptcy. In theory I guess you could buy off the manufacturing from there, but isn't it in Mexico? And all the people and knowledge would be gone at that point.
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We could just have a PCF crowdfund to acquire it
 
I'm trying to chase the Vegas of 20 years, so I asked chatgpt for some less "corporate" suggestions. What are your guys' thoughts on the following? Looking for tables, poker, and sunshine for a group of 40+ year old dads.

Reno (Peppermill or Grand Sierra)

Laughlin (Aquarius/Golden Nugget/Harrah’s) + river time.

Poker-first, party-second, sunshine-max? → Phoenix/Scottsdale – Talking Stick.

Beaches, breweries, and a couple of huge casino nights? → San Diego + Pechanga.

Different vibe entirely (mountains + casinos + Denver nightlife)? → Denver + Black Hawk combo.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is Carson City like these days? I was there about 45 years ago (shit, am I really that old?), and it seemed like a sleepy little town with several gambling dens, most of which had poker (pre-NLHE days). It was just a quick drive to Lake Tahoe, with a long, steep hill in between.
 
LotsOfChips said:
Just out of curiosity, what is Carson City like these days? I was there about 45 years ago (shit, am I really that old?), and it seemed like a sleepy little town with several gambling dens, most of which had poker (pre-NLHE days). It was just a quick drive to Lake Tahoe, with a long, steep hill in between.
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Our last trip to Carson City (2014) was about how Mrs Zombie remembered it in the early 1990s when she lived there. I imagine it's still pretty similar.
 
Just back from Vegas: TLDR, its not as busy, the prices are high to abusive, note things were weird due to Monday night football, echoes from the shutdown and the F1 race. The Bellagio is full smoking in the gaming area.

The planes to/from Vegas were 65% full Normally these flights have a waiting list. Not this time.

The airport in Vegas was sparsely populated. No line to get a cab / ride share. No line to get through TSA.

The Bellagio was busy. Not the tables or slots, but the casino had lots of people there. Noteworthy, the Cowboys were in town for Monday Night football. The F1 race is gearing up. so, the casino might have had an influx of special event traffic.

There was a lot of rain. The area got 4-6 months of rain while we were there. Cold and wet outdoors. Getting around town was quite difficult. The F1 preparation restricted foot traffic and vehicles as well. We didn't go exploring other casinos due to conditions

The age of the crowd was OLD. Bordering on geriatric. It wasn't the weekend though.

There was a scattering of non-Americans. That observation isn't so reliable due to the F! race drawing world-wide attention.

Pricing was abusive. The worst was on lower cost items. Things were cheaper at the airport than in Bellagio. $85 for two hamburgers, one fry, two drinks at a place with no service at all. Perspective - eating elsewhere in the casino, I got a nice Asian meal with all sorts of stuff for less than $100. Eggs benedict breakfast for two at a fine sit-down restaurant cost less than hamburgers at the walk-through self-service.

We got fair warning from the front desk - it we move or touch anything in the mini-bar area or open the fridge, expect a sizable room charge charge whether we actually consumed the item(s) or not.

The casino has reverted to full smoking, FUCK THAT! I walked into a reasonably busy poker room with an open seat for me but turned around and never returned due to the foul air. For sure, I am less tolerant than I was 30 years ago. For this alone, I'll never set foot in that property again. The place was unbelievably disgusting. All my clothes are in the wash - I'm headed to shower to get the stench off. My suitcase will stink for months.

Ms. Strange made a little money on slots. Not a lot, but any slot win is a good thing. She didn't play much as the cigar smoke didn't suit her either.

Overall: The shows we saw were fun. The restaurant food we got was excellent. The gambling was a total bust for me but better for my wife. The facilities were exemplary. The smoking thing was disgusting.

Likely aren't going back -=- DrStrange
 
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You would think by this point casinos would have a smoking and non-smoking section. I get wanting to allow smoking, but you also want the non-smoking crowd.
 
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DrStrange said:
Just back from Vegas: TLDR, its not as busy, the prices are high to abusive, note things were weird due to Monday night football, echoes from the shutdown and the F1 race. The Bellagio is full smoking in the gaming area.

The planes to/from Vegas were 65% full Normally these flights have a waiting list. Not this time.

The airport in Vegas was sparsely populated. No line to get a cab / ride share. No line to get through TSA.

The Bellagio was busy. Not the tables or slots, but the casino had lots of people there. Noteworthy, the Cowboys were in town for Monday Night football. The F1 race is gearing up. so, the casino might have had an influx of special event traffic.

There was a lot of rain. The area got 4-6 months of rain while we were there. Cold and wet outdoors. Getting around town was quite difficult. The F1 preparation restricted foot traffic and vehicles as well. We didn't go exploring other casinos due to conditions

The age of the crowd was OLD. Bordering on geriatric. It wasn't the weekend though.

There was a scattering of non-Americans. That observation isn't so reliable due to the F! race drawing world-wide attention.

Pricing was abusive. The worst was on lower cost items. Things were cheaper at the airport than in Bellagio. $85 for two hamburgers, one fry, two drinks at a place with no service at all. Perspective - eating elsewhere in the casino, I got a nice Asian meal with all sorts of stuff for less than $100. Eggs benedict breakfast for two at a fine sit-down restaurant cost less than hamburgers at the walk-through self-service.

We got fair warning from the front desk - it we move or touch anything in the mini-bar area or open the fridge, expect a sizable room charge charge whether we actually consumed the item(s) or not.

The casino has reverted to full smoking, FUCK THAT! I walked into a reasonably busy poker room with an open seat for me but turned around and never returned due to the foul air. For sure, I am less tolerant than I was 30 years ago. For this alone, I'll never set foot in that property again. The place was unbelievably disgusting. All my clothes are in the wash - I'm headed to shower to get the stench off. My suitcase will stink for months.

Ms. Strange made a little money on slots. Not a lot, but any slot win is a good thing. She didn't play much as the cigar smoke didn't suit her either.

Overall: The shows we saw were fun. The restaurant food we got was excellent. The gambling was a total bust for me but better for my wife. The facilities were exemplary. The smoking thing was disgusting.

Likely aren't going back -=- DrStrange
Click to expand...
Remarkably similar to my experience. I thought it was just me.

Every where I went I noticed the smoke WAY MORE than I ever have. I spent years giving the casinos kudos for sucking the smoke out before it smacked me in the face. Vegas casino's ventilation have been amazing the past decade, but something was different this past July. I literally felt like the casino's didn't give a flying F about the smoke and changed something up In their ventilation systems. It was thick as shit in every casino I walked through. Just gross!!
 
DrStrange said:
Kind of like enjoying a swimming in a pool with a shitting area and a no shitting area. For hygiene, we'll stretch a rope to designate where you can shit in the water.
Click to expand...
Its not quite that bad. Some dividing walls and HVAC adjustments could curtail most of it. I do think MGM's approach is to have that with different casinos. Park is fully non-smoking so that is their greater non-smoking section.
 
DrStrange said:
We got fair warning from the front desk - it we move or touch anything in the mini-bar area or open the fridge, expect a sizable room charge charge whether we actually consumed the item(s) or not.
Click to expand...

We got the same warning at Mandalay. Lady saw our kids, told us to keep an eye on their curious hands, and said we’d be charged every time the mini-fridge is opened, even if we don’t take anything out. They just assume something is taken and charge a fee.

But what’s really offensive is realizing how much of an intentional scam it is…

It’s 2025, it doesn’t require an obscene amount of technology to know what specific items were removed. Hell, you already have an IoT sensor on the fridge door. Why not take the added step of using item scanners/sensors?

Because - they want to charge people who open the door to take a peak, never take any beverages, but never examine their bill. Which I suspect is a huge % of guests. More free money for them.

That town has become a hot mess.
 
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DrStrange said:
Just back from Vegas: TLDR, its not as busy, the prices are high to abusive, note things were weird due to Monday night football, echoes from the shutdown and the F1 race. The Bellagio is full smoking in the gaming area.

The planes to/from Vegas were 65% full Normally these flights have a waiting list. Not this time.

The airport in Vegas was sparsely populated. No line to get a cab / ride share. No line to get through TSA.

The Bellagio was busy. Not the tables or slots, but the casino had lots of people there. Noteworthy, the Cowboys were in town for Monday Night football. The F1 race is gearing up. so, the casino might have had an influx of special event traffic.

There was a lot of rain. The area got 4-6 months of rain while we were there. Cold and wet outdoors. Getting around town was quite difficult. The F1 preparation restricted foot traffic and vehicles as well. We didn't go exploring other casinos due to conditions

The age of the crowd was OLD. Bordering on geriatric. It wasn't the weekend though.

There was a scattering of non-Americans. That observation isn't so reliable due to the F! race drawing world-wide attention.

Pricing was abusive. The worst was on lower cost items. Things were cheaper at the airport than in Bellagio. $85 for two hamburgers, one fry, two drinks at a place with no service at all. Perspective - eating elsewhere in the casino, I got a nice Asian meal with all sorts of stuff for less than $100. Eggs benedict breakfast for two at a fine sit-down restaurant cost less than hamburgers at the walk-through self-service.

We got fair warning from the front desk - it we move or touch anything in the mini-bar area or open the fridge, expect a sizable room charge charge whether we actually consumed the item(s) or not.

The casino has reverted to full smoking, FUCK THAT! I walked into a reasonably busy poker room with an open seat for me but turned around and never returned due to the foul air. For sure, I am less tolerant than I was 30 years ago. For this alone, I'll never set foot in that property again. The place was unbelievably disgusting. All my clothes are in the wash - I'm headed to shower to get the stench off. My suitcase will stink for months.

Ms. Strange made a little money on slots. Not a lot, but any slot win is a good thing. She didn't play much as the cigar smoke didn't suit her either.

Overall: The shows we saw were fun. The restaurant food we got was excellent. The gambling was a total bust for me but better for my wife. The facilities were exemplary. The smoking thing was disgusting.

Likely aren't going back -=- DrStrange
Click to expand...
justsomedude said:
We got the same warning at Mandalay. Lady saw our kids, told us to keep an eye on their curious hands, and said we’d be charged every time the mini-fridge is opened, even if we don’t take anything out. They just assume something is taken and charge a fee.

But what’s really offensive is realizing how much of an intentional scam it is…

It’s 2025, it doesn’t require an obscene amount of technology to know what specific items were removed. Hell, you already have an IoT sensor on the fridge door. Why not take the added step of using item scanners/sensors?

Because - they want to charge people who open the door to take a peak, but never examine their bill. Which I suspect is a huge % of guests. More free money for them.

That town has become a hot mess.
Click to expand...
WOW. A intentional fee JUST for opening the mini fridge? Death by a thousand small fees. Fuck them, and fuck Vegas.
 
You say Bellagio "reverted" to allowing smoking on the gaming floor, when did it ever go away? I haven't been there in a couple years, but it's always been smoking every time I've been there. There's always been smoking in every casino (with the exception of Park MGM and all poker rooms) AFAIK.
 
Seeking Alpha Social Club said:
1. My first stop was to buy a bottle of Elijah Craig bourbon. I usually buy a 1.75L bottle in VA for around $60. Well, I ended up just grabbing a 750ml and spent $79...WTF. A 750ml is $35 in VA.
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That's just crazy. I'm offended by the ridiculous hospitality costs. But I'm kinda shocked when retail costs twice as much. Screw that city.
 
It is outrageous that there is no distinction between actual smoking (use of fire and resulting smoke) and vaping or heating tobacco. Absolutely NO relation between the two.

In smoking bars, I just tolerate burning cigarettes and cigars, 'cause I can't really enjoy the subtle aroma of electrically heated tobacco.
No fire, no smoke, no ash for the latter.
95% less tar for the inhaler, negligible to others.
 
Thank you! Vaping is supposed to be a risk reductive alternative to smoking but its treated like its worse. "But the children!!!" Seriously? I'm literally not dying because of vaping helping me quit smoking.
 
DirtyTIVA said:
Vegas is pretty busy today. As @triton just put it, Vegas isn’t dying- it’s changing. It’s pretty delicious.
Click to expand...
Well sure. Vegas will always provide a super premium experience for those with a super premium vacation budget. That's always been the case and hasn't changed.

The point of this thread, I think, is that the middle class tourists who have been the backbone of the LV economy are being pushed out by predatory pricing and policies.

Maybe that's by design. Maybe LV can sustain itself on sports events, conventions, and wealthy tourists alone. I'm not sure I believe that, but my opinion isn't worth much. Time will tell.
 

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