Scammed by USPS? (2 Viewers)

[raynmanas]

Yes. That’s what I mostly ship. Padded envelopes (with a box inside), MFRB and LFRB.

Pirate Ship will ask for the weight even for FR service but it does not appear on the printable label.

There is max weight on FR packages, like 75 pounds within the U.S. or 20 pounds internationally. So Pirate Ship will prevent you from buying a label if your package is too heavy.

thanks. so i guess it's weird that usps.com doesn't even ask, but they don't. i just created a dummy shipment to make sure i wasn't imagining things. carry on!

 

[TheTrout]

(Many people have said this, Trout, I’m not singling you out, just borrowing the quote)

Here’s what I don’t get. I understand how you could read into the responses. And I’m not defending or prosecuting here. I’m just curious why everybody attaches so much importance to the lack of a denial, or the lack of confirmation that he actually handed the chips to the PO. For all the people who have formed an opinion, would a denial have changed your opinion?

I suppose this is more of a philosophical question. But what does the guy stand to gain by not denying it? Like, you don’t actually believe he’s sleazy enough to pull this scam, but somehow too honest to lie about it? And it’s not like he’s under oath here or on his text messages, where a perjury would make his situation any worse. This is an academic question - if the guy has nothing to gain by not denying it, why do people attach so much importance to the lack of a denial?

And again, this isn’t devils advocate crap; I’m not taking or begging any position here. I’m just trying to understand the thought processes behind some of what I’ve read.

This is a thoughtful reply. I will try to be equally thoughtful here too.

A big question you raise is this: would a flat out denial have made any difference?

I can’t speak for everyone here, but to me it would. If the other side of this transaction, even someone with @SpaceMonkey420’s eccentric personality and imperfect reputation, had adamantly insisted that everything was done above board, that the chips were packed correctly in the correct boxes and dropped off, I would be happy to agree with @Moxie Mike and others who argued for innocence until guilt is proven.

Short answer is: I disagree that @SpaceMonkey420has nothing to gain here by a full throated denial.

An aggravating circumstance is the way he has gone out of his way to avoid any hint of a denial. He didn’t ship @doublebooyah85 chips, he shipped him “items.” Who the hell talks like that? If it’s chips and cards and DBs in the same shipment…maybe? But just chips?

Your related point: if he is a scammer, he would have no problem lying to cover up the scam, right?

Maybe. This isn’t a bad argument. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if he adamantly insists that the USPS is responsible here, and sends the postal service and @doublebooyah85 on a wild goose chase for a “thief” when he knew what was up the whole time, it could open up a bigger can of worms than he is prepared to handle.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Not to mention that it seems like everyone is 90% certain, 95% certain, 99% certain that @SpaceMonkey420 scammed.

There are many private conversations happening. There are claims as well that he is being harassed by people not named Craig outside of PCF. There are calls for people to reach out in ways that could have irreversible effects - touching base with his work, touching base with his family, touching base with his church (immediate social support structures and means).

That is insane. Put a gun to my head and I am absolutely putting this all on Spacemonkey, no doubt.

But the fact that the rest of us (not craig) can't be certain, and that these actions or calls to action are being made - it's downright irresponsible.

It should not be allowed - but oh well since we're not a "marketplace" with marketplace rules, we're a community of hobbyists on a site that just happens to have a marketplace. Laughable.

 

[Cratty]

• Can you name the last 3 scammers? Do you know which went to jail, which paid, and which were banned? If the end result was different between those 3, with some brought to justice and others weren't, does that mean you've heard of those specifically?
  
  I'm begging the question, but the answer is no. I've already had people pm today asking for some background on PCF, previous scammers, etc. They knew nothing beyond Poppin via search and general knowledge.
  
  I don't think this take makes sense for future chippers unless this thread and spacemonkeys end result are sticked to the top of PCF in perpetuity.
  
  
• Perhaps instead you're referring to making a point so that current users and folks aware of this situation aren't emboldened. We've had 3 well known scams in the last 8 years. It's not a common theme, and it takes years and years for those people to get to a level where they can scam. Not a short game, hell not even a long game, they are scams of opportunity when a need arose. Regardless of the end result here and it's publishing, no type of enforcement or positive/negative reinforcement will affect those people/situations/actions

• If neither of those, and simply focusing on the importance of level of trust, whelp, changing the processes, updating feedback, etc. is all going to be wildly, WILDLY more effective. Are you aware of the 500 other examples in the past 8 years where people have been left hanging or not made whole? Do you know who doesn't respect fror and who does? No, because it's a socially engineered solution that relies fully on "trust". Neither path of action here will change that.

But at the end of the day, the biggest point is why does it matter that Craig specifically is the one pushing this to a conclusion. Let the companies sort it out, Spacemonkey can still be held responsible (although yes less likely), and Craig can move on with life.

I am not saying to drop everything and not see it through (I suggested he see it through utilizing charge back as a first option as suggested by the entirety of the world wide web). I'm simply saying that people telling Craig the onus is on him to hold us safe from the evils of SpaceMonkey, I can't see the meaning behind that unless they have insight into that process being more likely to make him whole (which of course they might).

If the other cases were directly related and processed appropriately I would have expected more responses citing appropriate measures to deal with this situation. That didn't appear to be the case, so here we are.

What I was advocating for is that the postal investigation report was filed, and that was done - which can now be seen to conclusion on its own.

What the federal/enforcement system does is up to them, no different than "letting the companies" take care of it. If both parties are innocent, that will also be an appropriate tool to help that case for the community, something company actions would not do.

 

[BarrieJ3]

If the other cases were directly related and processed appropriately I would have expected more responses citing appropriate measures to deal with this situation. That didn't appear to be the case, so here we are.

What I was advocating for is that the postal investigation report was filed, and that was done - which can now be seen to conclusion on its own.

What the federal/enforcement system does is up to them, no different than "letting the companies" take care of it. If both parties are innocent, that will also be an appropriate tool to help that case for the community, something company actions would not do.

Gotcha. So you don't disagree in any way shape or form with my suggestion, you just want to see it through regardless of how it's sought through.

Agreed, all good. I just figure one way is more straight forward and likely to have a quicker solution for Craig, with the downside of it not being as likely to impact Spacemonkey negatively.

 

[Budha]

I disagree. When you suspect a potential scam the correct thing to do is notify the community to help prevent there being other victims. This is a lesson that can be learned from Poppin, IIRC once there was a thread, lots of folks came out of the wood work saying they’d been having odd dealings with him.

I think the only critique along this line that can be made of Booyah is he could have included “potentially” or “likely” a couple times in the title and OP so that pedants and defendants of the meek would have less ammo

Although I wholly agree with you 100%. To Barrie’s point there are a few (maybe a bundle, not sure - lol) that defended Poppin and most recently @VMR911 to a somewhat almost irrational degree and came out hard on folks calling it out for what to them was obvious.

Anyway, your point still stands and I totally agree.

 

[ekricket]

For those that disagree with bringing other outside help - @SpaceMonkey420 is the one using religion and family as a shield. He’s the one that brought that kind of “support” into the conversations to validate his trustworthiness or piousness.
Since he’s more than willing to bring them in to support his character - without anyone asking him anything about them - it might behoove him and help him to let them know about this terrible situation.

 

[Gunnar]

But why paper!? Why not rocks or something free? This is more paper than a standard family goes through in a long time?


I think this looks very bad but I’m still not 100% sure it is not a mail theft. I think investigation is the only way to go.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I’m just curious why everybody attaches so much importance to the lack of a denial, or the lack of confirmation that he actually handed the chips to the PO. For all the people who have formed an opinion, would a denial have changed your opinion?

A few reasons. 1) It establishes a baseline and allows us to more objectively assess credibility (usually of both parties - but in this case only one is in question). 2) Circumstantially, his responses in this thread borderline on unhinged and at the very least, are obviously deflective and defensive and emotionally dishonest. 3) It's a red flag in and of itself in that it is not consistent with how an innocent, well-intentioned person would behave in this situation.

Imagine hypothetically you and I transact... I agree to buy your mint-uncirculated Vanilla Ice vinyl collection. I pay in full and I'm stoked when I get a tracking number only to have a WTF moment when the box is filled with nothing but a scratched up Milli Vanilli CD and some mustard-stained MC Hammer pants.

I'd be calling your ass up right away! Now imagine your surprise because the last thing you remember is dropping the sealed package off at the USPS office with the records fully secured. How would you respond? Would you chastise for my lack of appreciation over the newfound opportunity to prove how 'Too Legit' I am?

Or would you be as WTF about it as I would be? You'd be just as motivated to get it resolved as I would be.

I suppose this is more of a philosophical question. But what does the guy stand to gain by not denying it? Like, you don’t actually believe he’s sleazy enough to pull this scam, but somehow too honest to lie about it? And it’s not like he’s under oath here or on his text messages, where a perjury would make his situation any worse. This is an academic question - if the guy has nothing to gain by not denying it, why do people attach so much importance to the lack of a denial?

It's just human nature. Some people are perfectly fine stealing when they think no one’s watching, but they freeze when asked to lie directly - especially when their 'peers' are involved. You see it all the time in interrogations when confronted. They deflect. They reframe. They get philosophical. What they don’t do is issue a simple, clear denial, because doing that triggers a different level of guilt or fear of being caught lying.

That’s why people are reading into it. Not because a denial would magically change the facts, but because its absence doesn’t match the behavior of someone who’s genuinely in the dark and wants to get to the bottom of it.

What we're discussing lines up with traits often found in narcissistic personalities, especially when they're under pressure. There are plenty of examples, but the way he defaults to deflection instead of direct accountability is telling. Narcissists struggle to admit fault, because doing so threatens their carefully curated self-image which is probably tied to how they're perceived on PCF. This explains why the seller took exception to the buyer starting this thread.

 

[joeyshin]

But why paper!? Why not rocks or something free? This is more paper than a standard family goes through in a long time?


I think this looks very bad but I’m still not 100% sure it is not a mail theft. I think investigation is the only way to go.

Paper makes sense. If you’re not gonna send the chips then you should send paper and pens so they can write down and keep track of everyone’s stack. Quite genius and generous actually. I mean look at all the paper he sent. How many games can you host with that much paper. Wow

 

[Gunnar]

Paper makes sense. If you’re not gonna send the chips then you should send paper and pens so they can write down and keep track of everyone’s stack. Quite genius and generous actually. I mean look at all the paper he sent. How many games can you host with that much paper. Wow

By my calculations he now has 3827 sheets of paper. That is quite a lot of games.

 

[ovo]

Wow, what a tragedy . I work at USPS, (I"m always on the lookout for chip packages Stealing does happen in our company, but it is very rare. As @dennis63 already mentioned, and I agree completely with him, no one is going to steal a package and replace the contents with paper and reseal the package, BUT, if someone did do that, the reason might be to throw off suspicion of internal theft, so that person can continue to steal more items, but that is pretty crazy. I don't think it's very hard for someone in the company to steal a package, but to continue to steal multiple packages, they will eventually get caught. I hope this will be resolved.

 

[Cratty]

downside of it not being as likely to impact Spacemonkey negatively.

But that's where it's now really on spacemonkey. If he's innocent, it's a great tool to help him and he should welcome the investigation/etc if not champion it too, which can build him back up in the community here.

If he's not.. he better get on the refund or settlement train quickly.

If every scammer transaction ended in a split or company coverage.. does that detract future scamming or fuel more on? At some point a line needs to be drawn, but not necessarily Booyah's to carry and agree there.

I also think there needs to be "real-life" pressure on both parties to make right.. which clearly one side isn't even entertaining a split. Authorities are really the only tool I can think of there.

But alright.. alright.. my mouth ran more than it should and has gone from fat to fat and sweaty. Just hope spacemonkey takes an appropriate step tomorrow.

 

[Himewad]

Wow, what a tragedy . I work at USPS, (I"m always on the lookout for chip packages Stealing does happen in our company, but it is very rare. As @dennis63 already mentioned, and I agree completely with him, no one is going to steal a package and replace the contents with paper and reseal the package, BUT, if someone did do that, the reason might be to throw off suspicion of internal theft, so that person can continue to steal more items, but that is pretty crazy. I don't think it's very hard for someone in the company to steal a package, but to continue to steal multiple packages, they will eventually get caught. I hope this will be resolved.

That’s the thing that confuses me. If someone at the USPS wanted to steal a package, they would just steal it. Or they would empty it and deliver an empty box. They wouldn’t empty it and then fill it with paper that is (almost impossibly) exactly the same weight as the package when it was dropped off.

Sure seems like the seller shipped out two boxes of paper. It’s really hard to imagine any other scenario here.

I have had plenty of packages fall off the USPS tracing radar for days or even weeks. Almost all of them eventually showed up and were delivered without incident. I have had more packages delivered ripped open and empty (maybe 2 or 3) than packages that simply disappeared (one, IIRC). I’ve never had a package delivered with random filler inside.

 

[Budha]

Because he walks away with no consequence. And if I ever need to make a claim again with my credit card they may deny it and red flag my acct and close it.

They may not even go after PayPal or him and just write it off since I’m a good customer.

It’s been a while since I worked in the CC industry, but needless to say they don’t really view claims like insurance companies.

If you’re a good customer, pay on time, and use the card a lot, your not in danger of them canceling your card.

The fraud tracking and detection used by CC now is incredibly “smart” and sophisticated.

Additionally, the CC is not “out” the money in these instances, the merchant/seller is.

**A key reason to make the CC claim early is they can stop the payment before it fully clears the clearinghouse - making the whole process much easier!

Don’t wait, do it 1st thing tomorrow. Time is your enemy here. (I worked for a major CC company for 15 years)

Make the claim, ASAP.

 

[joeyshin]

That’s the thing that confuses me. If someone at the USPS wanted to steal a package, they would just steal it. Or they would empty it and deliver an empty box. They wouldn’t empty it and then fill it with paper that is (almost impossibly) exactly the same weight as the package when it was dropped off.

Sure seems like the seller shipped out two boxes of paper. It’s really hard to imagine any other scenario here.

I have had plenty of packages fall off the USPS tracing radar for days or even weeks. Almost all of them eventually showed up and were delivered without incident. I have had more packages delivered ripped open and empty (maybe 2 or 3) than packages that simply disappeared (one, IIRC).

The other side of this question is if a seller here wanted to scam someone then why would they ship anything at all? Wouldn’t they just disappear off the forum? Isn’t that what poppin did for weeks even months before everyone realize that he was never gonna ship? Why not just take the money and run? Why put up the ruse and ship paper, knowing that you’re going to get called out?

 

[digirati]

There's ZERO chance a USPS worker would fill a box with paper to steal chips. That would only focus an investigation towards the "in transit" stage. They would just steal the package. Therefore, someone is lying.

 

[softchewy]

What kind of error would have you mailing boxes of paper at more expense than it would cost for someone to actually purchase that paper?

 

[Machine]

The other side of this question is if a seller here wanted to scam someone then why would they ship anything at all? Wouldn’t they just disappear off the forum?

You're right, a rational person would likely ghost out. As others have pointed out, this monkey is narcissistic and likely has some need for attention. Not to mention, it seems to have an IQ right at 70.

 

[WedgeRock]

I'm not taking sides, but why even send a package of paper when it's guaranteed to be seen as a scam when delivered? Couldn't you just as easily make a label with the correct weight, take all the shit out, drop it off, then claim somebody opened the boxes en route and stole all the shit? I mean, if it wasn't delayed and got delivered on time in a few days, you get paper, you know it's a scam. I'm probably not thinking it all the way through, few sips of coffee is not enough.

Yep. Box up the chips, weigh, place a label. Open box from bottom. Replace chips with paper, re-tape and drop off and the post office.

 

[HelloGamer2]

This clearly preemptively debunks ANY future assertion by the seller that what happened here is someone at the post office tampered with the package and replaced the chips w/paper. @doublebooyah85 received what exactly was mailed to him . . . paper. There’s no refuting that one no matter what story the seller may tell here.

Playing devils advocate.. the reason he is using paper is because he would like you to believe a post worker measured the box and kept adding paper until it matched the original weight..

A foolproof way to tell if he handled the paper is to scan for fingerprints. File the police report and let them compare.

Because otherwise there is a nonzero chance that a post worker is the criminal here.

 

[Taghkanic]

Since I've never been employed by the USPS, nor have I ever been inclined to steal in such a manner that's being discussed I can only speculate. But if I were to think like a criminal... this would be an easy target.

Two heavy boxes. No insurance. No signature required. Private sender to private recipient thousands of miles away - no business account involved. The boxes bounce around and then sit at a facility for several days without movement. That seems like the kind of package that might catch a thief's eye.

They don’t need to know it’s $5K in chips. The weight alone makes it interesting. So they pop the seam to peek at what's inside, swap the contents with printer paper, reseal it cleanly, and it moves along without a hitch. Scans all track. No red flags. The system probably isn't reweighing it to verify anything... and if they damage the label in the process, anyone with access could probably just print another one.

Not saying that’s what happened. Just pointing out that this seems a lot more plausible than people seem to think and I imagine it probably occurs with some frequency.

Poker chips have zero value to most people. Even if the chips have big numbers on them, their worth is not going to be immediately apparent (and the thief’s ability to sell them once stolen is very iffy).

Not buying the theft angle at all.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Poker chips have zero value to most people. Even if the chips have big numbers on them, their worth is not going to be immediately apparent (and the thief’s ability to sell them once stolen is very iffy).

Not buying the theft angle at all.

I specifically said I didn't think that's what happened. Just that the possibility shouldn't be dismissed outright.

 

[HelloGamer2]

Good point overall, this could have been prevented by insuring the package first of all, uninterrupted video recording of you taping and labeling the package at usps and handing it off, clearly showing that you shipped the exact items.

Following the above protocol would make the seller never at fault. Lost package? Refunded through insurance. Package got to the customer and then they found paper inside? This is where things get much trickier.

To prove the customer didn’t hot swap and retape the package, he should preferably be on video receiving it directly from the usps delivery man, opening it up on video and displaying the contents clearly all in one uninterrupted go.

If the customer follows the above protocol, he should never be at fault and is owed a full refund from the seller if the package was not insured, even if the seller sent the correct items.

Is it realistic for the seller to follow the protocol? Yes especially with high value items.

Is it realistic for the customer to follow the protocol? No not really as ideally to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn’t hot swap the items you would need to open it as soon as you take it from USPS hands.


Super unfortunate situation for all innocent parties involved here.

Nevertheless @SpaceMonkey420 fucked up by not following seller protocol, so he should at least cough up half of the $5,000 if not all, in my opinion.

Okay I thought about it while I was at Five Guys and here's my thoughts.

Regardless of if SpaceMonkey sent paper or chips, or if someone at USPS took the chips or if aliens abducted the chips, Doublebooyah did not get the chips and is entitled to a full refund or a replacement of the chips. Open and shut item not received case.

The fact that the package sat at a USPS facility is irrelevant the only thing that matters is Doublebooyah did not receive the chips he ordered.

SpaceMonkey has to pursue the USPS to figure out what happened to the chips. Again, this has nothing to do with Booyah and a full refund should be sent immediately. A full refund will happen either way once the credit card provider steps in so the only reason for withholding is the inability to pay.

SpaceMonkey’s claim would be against the carrier and this claim is seperate from Booyah's claim against Spacemonkey. There shouldn't be any delay in the refund and there certainly should not be a delay 'contingent on USPS findings'.

Is any part of my thoughts flawed?

 

[BarrieJ3]

It’s not a horrid point. A couple years back I used to take photos of the chips at the post office, photos of chips in box, and photos of box packed.

Looking back, even that could have been argued. In fact, it proves nothing and in hindsight is something a scammer would specifically do, of course just pulling the chips out or whatever before boxing.

If I were to sell a set of my chips today (or anything $5kish and above), I would 1000% have one of those small body cam things to video without cuts - me placing them in the prepped box(es) at the office, sealing, and dropping off at prepaid desk.

That’s my biggest takeaway from this thread and prob a great tip for anyone selling high value chips to someone they aren’t friendly/familiar with.

 

[HelloGamer2]

If I were to sell a set of my chips today (or anything $5kish and above), I would 1000% have one of those small body cam things to video without cuts - me placing them in the prepped box(es) at the office, sealing, and dropping off at prepaid desk.

100% the best way to do it.

 

[shorticus]

It’s not a horrid point. A couple years back I used to take photos of the chips at the post office, photos of chips in box, and photos of box packed.

Looking back, even that could have been argued. In fact, it proves nothing and in hindsight is something a scammer would specifically do, of course just pulling the chips out or whatever before boxing.

If I were to sell a set of my chips today (or anything $5kish and above), I would 1000% have one of those small body cam things to video without cuts - me placing them in the prepped box(es) at the office, sealing, and dropping off at prepaid desk.

That’s my biggest takeaway from this thread and prob a great tip for anyone selling high value chips to someone they aren’t friendly/familiar with.

There’s no way to 100% omit risks with shipping. I think we all understand that in this hobby. There has to be some level of trust, and there’s going to be the 1% of issues that occur. That’s just part of hobbies like this one.

The only 100% way to avoid this is a face transaction in cash.

 

[Thomacetti]

The other side of this question is if a seller here wanted to scam someone then why would they ship anything at all? Wouldn’t they just disappear off the forum? Isn’t that what poppin did for weeks even months before everyone realize that he was never gonna ship? Why not just take the money and run? Why put up the ruse and ship paper, knowing that you’re going to get called out?

In the Poppin case, he scamed with inside support from the Post office because the boxes were scanned by the PO without receiving them.
That's why it took some time before we found out.

There was a full investigation done by PostNL (that I initiated).

Not saying this is the same situation...but just going offline would rise suspicion quickly.
Time is always on the side of the scammer.

Sorry to hear what happened @doublebooyah85...make quick work of that chargeback.
Hope this is resolved on your end asap.

 

[BarrieJ3]

There’s no way to 100% omit risks with shipping. I think we all understand that in this hobby. There has to be some level of trust, and there’s going to be the 1% of issues that occur. That’s just part of hobbies like this one.

The only 100% way to avoid this is a face transaction in cash.

I just mean to not get screwed as a seller. I suppose yeah, if chips went missing, I’d be on the hook for half. Have always known that.

This thread just makes me realize that I can ship chips and just about any chipper on here could put in paper (or any variation, they could say chips were missing, racks missing, boxes empty, whatever), say I scammed them, and I’d be f*cked.

I would be out the chips and the $5-10k+ without a doubt (or whatever the purchase value for missing chips), and with absolutely 0 recourse.

Hadn’t thought of it before.

We always say buyer beware, but h*ll seller beware too!

 

[Thomacetti]

There’s no way to 100% omit risks with shipping. I think we all understand that in this hobby. There has to be some level of trust, and there’s going to be the 1% of issues that occur. That’s just part of hobbies like this one.

The only 100% way to avoid this is a face transaction in cash.

Not to mention it will kill international shipping both ways.

When insurance is involved, it only make sense when the real value is stated.
With customs in play, they will calculate import tax & VAT on the insured amount...roughly +30%
Same for US should tarifs come in play.

I must add that in my +10 years of stressing about expensive international shipments...the worry was always about the third party (never as buyer / seller).