Moxie Mike
Full House
Yeah probably a notarized affidavit would make me feel confident the seller had acted in good faith.
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Scammed by USPS? (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter doublebooyah85
- Start date
BirdCage
Flush
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Is that the right against self-incrimination?
Moxie Mike
Full House
I'm really not a fan of trying people in the court of public opinion, but the seller has replied twice in this thread and both posts were elaborate, long-winded explanations to what should have been a simple question. He either shipped a box full of poker chips, or he shipped a decoy.
When people give long explanations, that's a classic sign of deception. The deflections are also troubling. I'm not saying the person is lying because I have no way to know one way or the other - nor is this my fight in the first place. I'm only sharing my opinion on a topic that's been made public.
It was stuck for 14 days because USPS was trying to figure out why someone would ship paper like that. Just kept scanning it... Looking for the sheets with LSD.
BPTDirector
Full House
Here’s what we know for sure.
The circumstances are paper was received. Other than that, conjecture.
However, as a seller I would never have my first reply insinuate the buyer was deceiving me, given the purchase history of this particular member. So it’s the seller or USPS, or I just fell off the turnip truck. Let’s just hope for an amicable result of some kind.
The circumstances are paper was received. Other than that, conjecture.
However, as a seller I would never have my first reply insinuate the buyer was deceiving me, given the purchase history of this particular member. So it’s the seller or USPS, or I just fell off the turnip truck. Let’s just hope for an amicable result of some kind.
The discussion has probably moved past this (I haven't read the entire thread since yesterday), and I'm not saying this means anything either way, but just wanted to point out a few things about things about the weights on the labels and on the scale:
Label says "19 Lb 10.8oz". That doesn't mean "19 pounds and 10 1/2 ounces". Even though 1/2 of a pound is 8oz, 0.8oz is not 1/2 ounce, it's 8/10 (or 4/5) of an ounce.
Digital scale shows "19.8 lb". That would translate to 19 pounds and 12.8 ounces, not 19 pounds and 10.8 ounces as shown on the label.
Digital scale shows "19.2 lb". 19.2 pounds would be 19 pounds 3.2 ounces, not "19 Lb 2.0 Oz" as shown on the label.
Again, not saying this proves or disproves anything (the weights are pretty darn close), just pointing out that the label weight and box weight for the two boxes do not match exactly.
Label says "19 Lb 10.8oz". That doesn't mean "19 pounds and 10 1/2 ounces". Even though 1/2 of a pound is 8oz, 0.8oz is not 1/2 ounce, it's 8/10 (or 4/5) of an ounce.
Digital scale shows "19.8 lb". That would translate to 19 pounds and 12.8 ounces, not 19 pounds and 10.8 ounces as shown on the label.
Digital scale shows "19.2 lb". 19.2 pounds would be 19 pounds 3.2 ounces, not "19 Lb 2.0 Oz" as shown on the label.
Again, not saying this proves or disproves anything (the weights are pretty darn close), just pointing out that the label weight and box weight for the two boxes do not match exactly.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Since I've never been employed by the USPS, nor have I ever been inclined to steal in such a manner that's being discussed I can only speculate. But if I were to think like a criminal... this would be an easy target.
Two heavy boxes. No insurance. No signature required. Private sender to private recipient thousands of miles away - no business account involved. The boxes bounce around and then sit at a facility for several days without movement. That seems like the kind of package that might catch a thief's eye.
They don’t need to know it’s $5K in chips. The weight alone makes it interesting. So they pop the seam to peek at what's inside, swap the contents with printer paper, reseal it cleanly, and it moves along without a hitch. Scans all track. No red flags. The system probably isn't reweighing it to verify anything... and if they damage the label in the process, anyone with access could probably just print another one.
Not saying that’s what happened. Just pointing out that this seems a lot more plausible than people seem to think and I imagine it probably occurs with some frequency.
Okay, I’ll play along. The logistics seem weird. Are the people who are transferring the boxes, the same as those who are working the front counter? If so, do they have access to print (or reprint labels). What business case would require someone to have access to doing this? Why does this not require someone sort of management approval to avoid this exact type of scenario?
Also, if a label was reprinted, wouldn’t there be a timestamp showing the time and location for where the reprint occurred?
Assuming both parties are being honest here, I don’t understand why a post office management system couldn’t resolve this in a matter of minutes.
bergs
Royal Flush
I know this very traumatic for everyone involved but if this was a USPS scam, can we please have a moment of silence to honor all of the poor postal workers that just wanted to print something that fateful day and couldn’t?
It’s easy to overlook them, but the people with pending print jobs are potentially victims too.
It’s easy to overlook them, but the people with pending print jobs are potentially victims too.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I truly believe @doublebooyah85 is not the scammer.
I cannot phantom a postal employee surgically cutting open a box and replacing it with paper when 'disappearing" a package would be easier - you cannot tell me a postal worker wanted to do something the harder, more time consuming way.
I can also believe that spacemonkey420 did not intentionally scam 2xBooyah. Spacemonkey probably got really, really high, and accidentally mailed a bunch of paper.
...as a side note, nobody ask spacemonkey to print anything. HSI's can really jam up a printer.
I cannot phantom a postal employee surgically cutting open a box and replacing it with paper when 'disappearing" a package would be easier - you cannot tell me a postal worker wanted to do something the harder, more time consuming way.
I can also believe that spacemonkey420 did not intentionally scam 2xBooyah. Spacemonkey probably got really, really high, and accidentally mailed a bunch of paper.
...as a side note, nobody ask spacemonkey to print anything. HSI's can really jam up a printer.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Again - I don't know much about the inner workings of the USPS but it's not a stretch to assume workers are cross-trained for multiple positions and probably have access to systems they don't actually need on a daily basis.
These are all good questions but probably are best addressed by someone with inside knowledge. That said, it's reasonable to surmise that the system logs would have all terminal and user data in a database.
Have you ever tried to address an issue with the USPS? They're about as inefficient as an organization can get. Think about it: In order to get to the bottom of this, they need to retrace the package's exact whereabouts across at least 12 different touchpoints over a 2-week period. Then they'd need to review all available security camera footage at each juncture hoping to catch the thief red-handed - a thief who (if they're brazen enough to pull this off at all) probably already knows where all the security cameras are.
An investigation into something like this would take months and the USPS is very unmotivated to take part in the process.
Okay I thought about it while I was at Five Guys and here's my thoughts.
Regardless of if SpaceMonkey sent paper or chips, or if someone at USPS took the chips or if aliens abducted the chips, Doublebooyah did not get the chips and is entitled to a full refund or a replacement of the chips. Open and shut item not received case.
The fact that the package sat at a USPS facility is irrelevant the only thing that matters is Doublebooyah did not receive the chips he ordered.
SpaceMonkey has to pursue the USPS to figure out what happened to the chips. Again, this has nothing to do with Booyah and a full refund should be sent immediately. A full refund will happen either way once the credit card provider steps in so the only reason for withholding is the inability to pay.
SpaceMonkey’s claim would be against the carrier and this claim is seperate from Booyah's claim against Spacemonkey. There shouldn't be any delay in the refund and there certainly should not be a delay 'contingent on USPS findings'.
Is any part of my thoughts flawed?
Regardless of if SpaceMonkey sent paper or chips, or if someone at USPS took the chips or if aliens abducted the chips, Doublebooyah did not get the chips and is entitled to a full refund or a replacement of the chips. Open and shut item not received case.
The fact that the package sat at a USPS facility is irrelevant the only thing that matters is Doublebooyah did not receive the chips he ordered.
SpaceMonkey has to pursue the USPS to figure out what happened to the chips. Again, this has nothing to do with Booyah and a full refund should be sent immediately. A full refund will happen either way once the credit card provider steps in so the only reason for withholding is the inability to pay.
SpaceMonkey’s claim would be against the carrier and this claim is seperate from Booyah's claim against Spacemonkey. There shouldn't be any delay in the refund and there certainly should not be a delay 'contingent on USPS findings'.
Is any part of my thoughts flawed?
It all makes me think about postman profession in USA vs Poland.
Sure, we had some postman on the news stilling money but usualy they being percive as quite harmless, sure they might screw your wife when you are at work but they will never tuch your property.
Opposite to that USA federal postal employees I percived by me like a mix of Newman and al Capone outfit guy. Propobly I heard too many stories missing packages that makes me think they are a bit like organized crime syndicate.
Sure, we had some postman on the news stilling money but usualy they being percive as quite harmless, sure they might screw your wife when you are at work but they will never tuch your property.
Opposite to that USA federal postal employees I percived by me like a mix of Newman and al Capone outfit guy. Propobly I heard too many stories missing packages that makes me think they are a bit like organized crime syndicate.
I wouldn't say flawed, but plenty of people sell (and buy) on the agreement/understanding that if the seller did his or her due diligence in properly packing up the product, once it is dropped off at the shipper, it is out of their hands and not their responsibility, since what happens with the package is not within their control at that point. The term is F.O.B. (Free on Board, or Free on Board Origin), learned it from @Machine.
(Doesn't mean the seller shouldn't help resolve the issue or come to a compromise, especially if insurance is purchased and it's on the seller to file the claim...)
RocAFella1
Royal Flush
OP
OP
As a seller I always take responsibility. I sure as shit wouldn’t accuse the buyer of scamming. But as the buyer, it absolutely is okay to assume you’re getting scammed. I also wouldn’t just send a few texts and few posts on pcf then bounce lol
He reached out to me via text to sell me something below market price. I told him the price was too low on several racks and insisted he sold them via auction to make more money…
He also never offered insurance and I didn’t say anything because I always back up my purchases using a credit card on PayPal for this reason.
He reached out to me via text to sell me something below market price. I told him the price was too low on several racks and insisted he sold them via auction to make more money…
He also never offered insurance and I didn’t say anything because I always back up my purchases using a credit card on PayPal for this reason.
legend672
Full House
So seller just happened to contact buyer and make him an offer he can’t refuse and then the chips don’t show up but paper does in its place. You don’t have to be Banacek to figure this one out. Or Joe Mannix or Frank Cannon.
OP
OP
And previous interactions on another sale he took my offer, and shopped it with other PCF members, who were texting me and letting me know about the chips he was trying to sell bc they knew I would be the high bidder anyway lol (Hot stamp $100s)
Then he posted them for sale in a sales thread and told me to dibs them first lol
@doublebooyah85 absolutely sucks that this has happened. Based on my limited interactions with you, I think you are 1000% a trustworthy member. But I'm surprised something like this hasn't happened sooner. It was only a matter of time given the values we are talking currently.
A couple of opinions for community for what it's worth...
1) people need to stop using Paypal Friends and Family for transactions..unless you are prepared to take a loss for that value. The buyer or seller (or both) should cover the amount of the goods and services fees. It's not perfect but it offers more protections.
2) Stop using USPS to ship chips! I utilize Fedex One Rate 2day shipping. It cost just a fraction more than USPS and it actually shows up in 2 days.. I've sent over 100 packages this year with Fedex One Rate 2 Day shipping and only 1 package did not arrive on time due to a snow storm and both me and the buyer were sent multiple 'factual' emails stating the status and estimated delivery date. None of those delayed in transit limbo messages that the USPS generates from their magic 8ball. Packages have been insured and I have had to make ZERO claims.. and not 1 buyer complaint. Seller MUST use sound packaging methods however.
3) As a buyer, request and if necessary, pay for insurance. Most people would not ship a rolex or diamond uninsured but I see those types of values offered here all the time without insurance. I would not necessarily purchase insurance on a USPS shipment... you may not live long enough to see that credit but with UPS and Fedex they pay out relatively quick provided everything was handled properly.
4) Use a credit card that has a strong charge back reputation to fund these transactions should all the above fail.
A couple of opinions for community for what it's worth...
1) people need to stop using Paypal Friends and Family for transactions..unless you are prepared to take a loss for that value. The buyer or seller (or both) should cover the amount of the goods and services fees. It's not perfect but it offers more protections.
2) Stop using USPS to ship chips! I utilize Fedex One Rate 2day shipping. It cost just a fraction more than USPS and it actually shows up in 2 days.. I've sent over 100 packages this year with Fedex One Rate 2 Day shipping and only 1 package did not arrive on time due to a snow storm and both me and the buyer were sent multiple 'factual' emails stating the status and estimated delivery date. None of those delayed in transit limbo messages that the USPS generates from their magic 8ball. Packages have been insured and I have had to make ZERO claims.. and not 1 buyer complaint. Seller MUST use sound packaging methods however.
3) As a buyer, request and if necessary, pay for insurance. Most people would not ship a rolex or diamond uninsured but I see those types of values offered here all the time without insurance. I would not necessarily purchase insurance on a USPS shipment... you may not live long enough to see that credit but with UPS and Fedex they pay out relatively quick provided everything was handled properly.
4) Use a credit card that has a strong charge back reputation to fund these transactions should all the above fail.
Not that it has anything to do with this transaction, but it's never felt good faithy to me. And I'd never buy a dice chip from somebody who tried to force those terms on me.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Yes. This seems to absolutely imply that the buyer is infallible in every transaction and the full weight of the risk always falls on the seller. That doesn't seem fair. This isn't a retail transaction where the seller has margin built in.
My understanding has always been that if a buyer and seller have mutually acted in good faith, it's the responsibility of the parties to reach an amicable solution on a case-by-case basis.
When you're a seller, do you want to automatically assume full liability for undelivered/damaged/porch-pirated packages?
I have to disagree here. I don’t think it’s far fetched to think a person could buy chips, alter the contents of the box, and make a false claim. Not saying it’s happening often, but it just doesn’t seem that far fetched.
To be clear, I don’t think that applies here.
acezag
3 of a Kind
You haven't dealt with with the delusions of a narcissist, I bet.
Moxie Mike
Full House
It's looking like we need a new 'go to' methodology for our transactions. For years, the PP F&F/USPS FRBs were the SOP because they were reliable and reasonably safe. But that doesn't seem to be the case any more.
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How many people have been scammed and left out to dry in past 10 years?
There was moscowradio and poppin.
Plenty of issues in that decade sure, but are there any other known cases where pcfer to pcfer transaction weren’t made whole?
But seems like folks agree, many red flags here and hindsight is 20/20 but G&S def shoulda been utilized. Guess we’ll see what the future holds!
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Moxie Mike
Full House
Plausible deniability?
I've never printed my own stickers... I always just take them to USPS to ship at the counter. But if you dropped off a package that said 20 lbs and it was obviously light, one would assume a worker would notice.
acezag
3 of a Kind
I haven't been here long, but every transaction I've been part of, it's up to the buyer whether or not insurance is included.
Not saying it's right or wrong, but if the seller is supposed to refund immediately, it seems like what this forum believes is that the seller should be providing insurance every time.
The opposite is standard practice.
I've apparently shipped nearly 300 packages (according to Pirate Ship) in my time here on PCF, almost exclusively USPS and PPFF. I think I can count issues I've had with a receiver on one hand. *knock on wood*
It's funny, I will often round up the weight when I buy a label (and print it at home) because my more exact digital scales max out at not that much weight, and I don't want to put a weight on a label and then get dinged for the package being just slightly over that (it has happened to me before).
Like if the shipping cost is the same for 1-4 oz, I will just put 4oz on it, even if the actual package is 2 or 3 oz. Just to be safe.
For the most part I am shipping using Flat Rate (or cubic rate), so the label doesn't include the weight I inputted anyway, but sometimes it does show this over-estimated weight.
I also almost always wait in line to hand off the packages and get a printed receipt, and on the receipt it does show the actual weight of the item (the postal worker has to weigh the package as it gets scanned in).
I never thought about if that could potentially be used to "prove" a discrepancy...
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