I agree. The 2012 WSOP cards are Fournier. I absolutely hated them at first. (stiff, slippery and lots of fumbled shuffles). Now I really like them. After a few games these cards have broken in to where they they've gone from hate to love. They produce a nice crisp shuffle and handle great. The eBay seller sells these pretty cheap. (as low as $2.50 + shipping for used and they might have a head start in break in).
KEM Hater (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NotRealNameNoSir
- Start date
Just received a setup of the 2011 (new old stock) from the eBay seller with all the WSOP cards.
They’re fantastic. Hope they stay that way.
I had remembered that there may have been an issue with the 2011 WSOP cards, and found this blog:
http://taopoker.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-wsop-day-8-marked-cards-conspiracy.html?m=1
It claims a number of the lower spades, particularly the
was compromised. I checked my decks and sure enough, with the right light and the right angle, very evident. Sadly, it’s easier to see the issue in person than in photos.
The:
And the
:
It’s like a band of the finish isn’t the same. Like a sprayer of the finish wasn’t working correctly, and since the lower spades are likely all together in the print sheet, all were affected in a similar manner. Even the faces are affected:
I will say, this will probably go unnoticed under most lighting conditions, but… it’s there.
http://taopoker.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-wsop-day-8-marked-cards-conspiracy.html?m=1
It claims a number of the lower spades, particularly the
was compromised. I checked my decks and sure enough, with the right light and the right angle, very evident. Sadly, it’s easier to see the issue in person than in photos.The
:And the
:It’s like a band of the finish isn’t the same. Like a sprayer of the finish wasn’t working correctly, and since the lower spades are likely all together in the print sheet, all were affected in a similar manner. Even the faces are affected:
I will say, this will probably go unnoticed under most lighting conditions, but… it’s there.
Last edited:
OP
OP
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
Aight, looks like we're playing razz next game night!I had remembered that there may have been an issue with the 2011 WSOP cards, and found this blog:
http://taopoker.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-wsop-day-8-marked-cards-conspiracy.html?m=1
It claims a number of the lower spades, particularly the
The
View attachment 1107964
And the
View attachment 1107965
It’s like a band of the finish isn’t the same. Like a sprayer of the finish wasn’t working correctly, and since the lower spades are likely all together in the print sheet, all were affected in a similar manner. Even the faces are affected:
View attachment 1107975
I will say, this will probably go unnoticed under most lighting conditions, but… it’s there.
LeLe
4 of a Kind
I had remembered that there may have been an issue with the 2011 WSOP cards, and found this blog:
http://taopoker.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-wsop-day-8-marked-cards-conspiracy.html?m=1
It claims a number of the lower spades, particularly the
The
View attachment 1107964
And the
View attachment 1107965
It’s like a band of the finish isn’t the same. Like a sprayer of the finish wasn’t working correctly, and since the lower spades are likely all together in the print sheet, all were affected in a similar manner. Even the faces are affected:
View attachment 1107975
I will say, this will probably go unnoticed under most lighting conditions, but… it’s there.
Those will still be useable for Short deck Poker where 2-5 is not required
Last edited:
I couldn't resist and ordered a few decks of these, and they arrived today. I opened up the celo and this is what I found. Were not shuffled, just opened the wrapper. Let the bashing continue.
OP
OP
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
tHeYrE tHe BeSt
When they’re not warped, bowed or otherwise trashed, yes!
OP
OP
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
Yup, that top 5% of KEMs are GOLD!
there will come a time where I play with wonderful KEMs, but it is NOT THIS DAY.
RagahRagah
Flush
I have never understood the Kem love and think they are one of the most overrated products ever. People seem to hold them to the highest standard whereas I think they are about the worst of all the "high quality" cards. I rarely use them anymore, they are just so loose and flimsy and so prone to warping and on multiple occasions I have had them warp after only a few uses; they just dont seem to bend right and even after one use seem like they don't snap back fully. Sometimes merely shuffling them makes me paranoid that they are going to warp on the spot, that's how psychologically damaged I've become by these things.
Meanwhile, Copag seem to get all the hate and I find them to be vastly superior cards, with better ink they would be just about flawless IMO.
Meanwhile, Copag seem to get all the hate and I find them to be vastly superior cards, with better ink they would be just about flawless IMO.
Last edited:
If only Copags didn't stink so bad. The last setup I bought had such a burned plastic smell, they gave me a headache.
RagahRagah
Flush
I feel like most cards have a scent, so just kind of a personal preference kinda thing. I don't mind it. Some people love the smell of gas and some people hate it... kinda the same type of deal.
I can’t speak for everyone, but that’s exactly what we like about them. They’re a dream to handle.
Some people prefer stiff cards and that’s fine. But the loose and flimsy KEMs have been THE choice in American casino poker rooms for a long time.
RagahRagah
Flush
I mean... isn’t it easily arguable that this is WHY they are so warp prone? Educate a newb here.
I don’t know. I guess you could. But there are other thin flexible cards that aren’t warp prone, so I don’t know.
But then that raises another question - do you prefer thicker stiffer cards because you think they’re less likely to warp and/or get damaged? Or do you prefer them because you actually like the way they feel?
My theory as to why they warp more is because they are made of cellulose acetate rather than pvc. I think this gives them the paper like feel, but also allows them to absorb humidity. Just my opinion.
OP
OP
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
Totally understand that, but we also know business sense. They have a connection/contract and the brand works: they buy in huge bulk orders and toss decks out well before we would anyways. The contract is already there and as casinos open, why fix what's not broken between huge companies? At their wholesale level they're a lot less worried about one or two warped decks, very different home market.
I would agree, that's an important question. For me, that's probably half the reason. I like my cards to feel stiff, robust, I'm less worried about them warping or bending/bowing if played with wrong or anything. Most of my players don't know that the cards cost more than the buyins at our microstakes game lol and I'd like to keep it that way!
For the record, I don’t really recommend Kems to home users (especially microstakes) because their $30 price tag is about the highest, and they’re finicky to say the least.
But if you ask me which cards are the best, they’re my answer.
grandmeme
3 of a Kind
For home users, it's $30 for a chance for them to be good. Playing time will also vary. But I agree, they are the best - when they are good.
LeLe
4 of a Kind
The success rate of a good lasting Kems deck is too low thou, it like needing a runner runner chance of low
grandmeme
3 of a Kind
To be fair, my only surviving KEM setup now was printed in 1941
ekricket
Royal Flush
Wall of text here from Wikipedia. Someone was experiencing the last paragraph on some of their decks. This wall is in reference to film, but it could be the same thing going on here since it’s a similar if not same material.
From Wikipedia
Cellulose acetate releases acetic acid, the key ingredient in vinegar, which is responsible for its acidic smell. The problem became known as "vinegar syndrome".[3] This accelerates degradation within the film, and can also contribute to damage to surrounding films and metals.[4]
The first instance of cellulose triacetate degradation was reported to the Eastman Kodak Company within a decade of its introduction in 1948. The first report came from the Government of India, whose film materials were stored in hot, humid conditions. It was followed by further reports of degradation from collections stored in similar conditions. These observations resulted in continuing studies in the Kodak laboratories during the 1960s. Film degradation can only be delayed by storage in dry and cold conditions. It was initially thought that storage under recommended conditions might delay decay by 450 years, but some films are developing vinegar syndrome after just 70 years of cold dry storage.[5] Arri and others sold film recorders specifically for recording video onto film for archival purposes based on the assumption that vinegar syndrome could be delayed for long periods of time.[6][7]
The progression of degradation
Edit
In acetate film, acetyl (CH3CO) groups are attached to long molecular chains of cellulose. With exposure to moisture, heat, or acids, these acetyl groups break from their molecular bonds and acetic acid is released.[8] While the acid is initially released inside the plastic, it gradually diffuses to the surface, causing a characteristic vinegary smell.
The decay process follows this pattern:
Acetic acid is released during the initial acetate base deterioration, leading to the characteristic vinegar odor. This signal marks the progression of deterioration.[9]
The plastic film base becomes brittle. This occurs in the advanced stages of deterioration, weakening the film and causing it to shatter with the slightest tension. These physical changes happen because cellulose acetate consists of long chains of repeating units, or polymers. When the acetic acid is released as these groups break off, the acidic environment helps to break the links between units, shortening the polymer chains and leading to brittleness.[9]
Shrinkage also occurs during this process. With the cellulose acetate polymer chains breaking into smaller pieces, and with their side groups splitting off, the plastic film begins to shrink. In advanced stages of deterioration, shrinkage can be as much as 10%. There have been some reports of film 35mm wide shrinking to almost 17mm.[9]
As the acetate base shrinks, the gelatin emulsion of the film does not shrink, because it is not undergoing deterioration. The emulsion and film base separate, causing buckling, referred to by archivists as 'channelling.'[9] Sheet films are often severely channelled in the later stages of degradation.
Crystalline deposits or liquid-filled bubbles appear on the emulsion. These are evidence of plasticizers, additives to the plastic base, becoming incompatible with the film base and oozing out on the surface. This discharge of plasticizers is a sign of advanced degradation.[10]
In some cases, pink or blue colors appear in some sheet films. This is caused by antihalation dyes, which are normally colorless and incorporated into the gelatin layer. When acetic acid is formed during deterioration, the acidic environment causes the dyes to return to their original pink or blue color.[10]
From Wikipedia
Cellulose acetate releases acetic acid, the key ingredient in vinegar, which is responsible for its acidic smell. The problem became known as "vinegar syndrome".[3] This accelerates degradation within the film, and can also contribute to damage to surrounding films and metals.[4]
The first instance of cellulose triacetate degradation was reported to the Eastman Kodak Company within a decade of its introduction in 1948. The first report came from the Government of India, whose film materials were stored in hot, humid conditions. It was followed by further reports of degradation from collections stored in similar conditions. These observations resulted in continuing studies in the Kodak laboratories during the 1960s. Film degradation can only be delayed by storage in dry and cold conditions. It was initially thought that storage under recommended conditions might delay decay by 450 years, but some films are developing vinegar syndrome after just 70 years of cold dry storage.[5] Arri and others sold film recorders specifically for recording video onto film for archival purposes based on the assumption that vinegar syndrome could be delayed for long periods of time.[6][7]
The progression of degradation
Edit
In acetate film, acetyl (CH3CO) groups are attached to long molecular chains of cellulose. With exposure to moisture, heat, or acids, these acetyl groups break from their molecular bonds and acetic acid is released.[8] While the acid is initially released inside the plastic, it gradually diffuses to the surface, causing a characteristic vinegary smell.
The decay process follows this pattern:
Acetic acid is released during the initial acetate base deterioration, leading to the characteristic vinegar odor. This signal marks the progression of deterioration.[9]
The plastic film base becomes brittle. This occurs in the advanced stages of deterioration, weakening the film and causing it to shatter with the slightest tension. These physical changes happen because cellulose acetate consists of long chains of repeating units, or polymers. When the acetic acid is released as these groups break off, the acidic environment helps to break the links between units, shortening the polymer chains and leading to brittleness.[9]
Shrinkage also occurs during this process. With the cellulose acetate polymer chains breaking into smaller pieces, and with their side groups splitting off, the plastic film begins to shrink. In advanced stages of deterioration, shrinkage can be as much as 10%. There have been some reports of film 35mm wide shrinking to almost 17mm.[9]
As the acetate base shrinks, the gelatin emulsion of the film does not shrink, because it is not undergoing deterioration. The emulsion and film base separate, causing buckling, referred to by archivists as 'channelling.'[9] Sheet films are often severely channelled in the later stages of degradation.
Crystalline deposits or liquid-filled bubbles appear on the emulsion. These are evidence of plasticizers, additives to the plastic base, becoming incompatible with the film base and oozing out on the surface. This discharge of plasticizers is a sign of advanced degradation.[10]
In some cases, pink or blue colors appear in some sheet films. This is caused by antihalation dyes, which are normally colorless and incorporated into the gelatin layer. When acetic acid is formed during deterioration, the acidic environment causes the dyes to return to their original pink or blue color.[10]
RagahRagah
Flush
Both.
This is the best comment in this thread. I think most people agree on the definition of PVC, but who here has felt the difference between a Kem, a Modiano Platinum, and a Guild card? Kems are night and day different from the other supposed acetate cards. Who knows what exact chemical composition Modiano is choosing to call acetate. Kem states cellulose acetate, but I haven’t seen a similar identifier on the others. So at the end of the day, we don’t really know what the actual composition is. To me, a Modiano platinum acetate and a Modiano PVC Texas poker feel pretty similar. Modiano makes Guilds, so those seem to be pretty similar to the other Modianos.
Acetate could refer to PEVA, PVAc, PVCA, or VA/AA — all polymers that have acetate in the name. PEVA is used for shower curtains. PVCA is used for making credit cards and interestingly, vinyl records.
https://healthybuilding.net/uploads/files/sorting-out-the-vinyls-when-is-vinyl-not-pvc.pdf
Venturalvn
Full House
Pre USPC KEMs were a world apart. I have a couple brown box setups that have never been opened, and at this point I don't want to. I'm in love with that they once were, what they never will be again, and I will play Schrodinger's KEMs with my last remaining babies as long as I can.
Okay but hold on. Doesn’t brown box setups imply casino use not consumer use? Because that’s always where I thought the difference might be - that they’re making a different and maybe better product for casinos than they are for us.
Venturalvn
Full House
Unless they started printing in brown boxes again, I've always known the brown boxes to be how KEMs were shipped before USPC bought them out.
I'm not a historian though, just a purchaser. I bought KEMs specifically for my games. They always came in brown boxes from any supplier I found online. Then when USPC started making them, every setup I received was in a black box, and filled with absolute garbage.
Always been my opinion exactly ^^^^
I wasn’t buying them back then personally. But a quick look at eBay shows vintage KEMs in plastic boxes going way back. This isnt to say they werent packaging some retail setups in brown cardboard boxes too - I don’t know. But th only KEMs I’ve personally owned in brown boxes were casino KEMs. And they were pretty amazing.
Venturalvn
Full House
It is also possible that I specifically targeted brown box KEMs as I knew it to be synonymous with quality, which they were. So maybe I have a problem with all black box KEMs, but we'll never know ...
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