Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
IT'S SPEECH PLAY!
Hand Analysis - $100/$200/$400 NLHE Home Game (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Windwalker
- Start date
IT'S SPEECH PLAY!
OP
OP
Fold, of course. (Most likely.)
FDLmold
Royal Flush
Very entertaining ending.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
You created a thread to celebrate your angle shooting. Congrats.
I can't believe the floor allowed these shenanigans. Villain bet, action is on you. Fold or call.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Definitely an angle shoot by Hero. Floor should not allow such action to take place. Villain made a very clear bet, it should not be allowed to be taken back.
If Hero wants to show his hand to see if he gets a reaction that is one thing, to try to make a deal after that should not be allowed. Floor should have told Hero his only options are to call or fold.
If Hero wants to show his hand to see if he gets a reaction that is one thing, to try to make a deal after that should not be allowed. Floor should have told Hero his only options are to call or fold.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I think you guys are missing this is a HIGH STAKES HOME GAME and oftentimes they have their own set of rules based on the playerbase, which includes deals like this.
I've seen it in private games at legit poker rooms where the players essentially run the game and rules mostly, so a home game is going to be moreso.
I've seen it in private games at legit poker rooms where the players essentially run the game and rules mostly, so a home game is going to be moreso.
I’m a little confused on how it’s an angle.
If V went all in, action is to hero, as long as he turns his cards over first before the talk. Wouldn’t V clearly know at that point whether he was good or not?
Edit:
Nvm I got it.
If V went all in, action is to hero, as long as he turns his cards over first before the talk. Wouldn’t V clearly know at that point whether he was good or not?
Edit:
Nvm I got it.
Last edited:
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Villain obviously didn’t know it was allowed since he had to ask. Rules are important to keep ANY game running fairly for all involved.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
In my experience private game rules are sometimes "flexible" based on who is asking
Some players have more leeway than othets
TheDuke
Full House
Home game or casino game, I think most people would generally regard this as a dick move. An angle shoot is an angle shoot. Very William Kassouf-esque.
Great way to treat a new player taking a shot at 20x his normal stakes.
Lol. Did hero kick a stray cat after the game as well?
OP
OP
Guys, relax. It’s a home game, where speech play and post bet deals happen all the time. Host does most of those himself.
I wasn’t celebrating the move, I routinely lose $80-$100k pots in that game. Just happens to be something that’s allowed and relatively prevalent in that game, and this is one I remembered because I was involved in it.
This isn’t a casino, this is a bunch of drinking degens who play high stakes. Just thought it was an entertaining hand and a glimpse into the degen that is this game that I play sometimes.
Quad Johnson
Two Pair
Appreciate you taking us for the ride, Krish. I very much enjoy these.
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2020
- Messages
- 9,999
- Reaction score
- 14,660
Kind of reminds me of the deal in the hand between Benyamine and Laliberte.
Last edited:
Moto
High Hand
That was awesome to follow Krish! Thanks for sharing! SICK
mack10man
Sitting Out
You played it perfect
OP
OP
That’s actually eerily similar. I guess the one major difference is that Laliberte called, and they made the deal after.
Again, not sure why some people got their panties in a bunch on this, it was supposed to be a fun look into a crazy game we play.
If he had the better hand, he wouldn’t have taken the deal, and won the pot. His overbet and my read on it being a bluff might have gotten me to call and he would have lost $380k. It’s not like i “angled” without showing him my cards, so he had all the info to decide whether to take the deal or not.
More I think about it, I don’t see that as angling, primarily because I exposed my hand. If he had the better hand, which he could figure out, he would have simply said no. He could have also said nothing. To be clear, his question to the host was whether what I said was binding, not if it was allowed.
I dunno, I guess different strokes for different folks.
TheDuke
Full House
Lol.
Sorry but that Laliberte hand is not even close to the same situation. He charitably cut Benyamine a deal.
Actions described by the OP is an angle shoot. There's no gray area here. It's pretty black and white what took place. You even noted that you would have folded if he reacted differently.
But that being said, sounds like the focus is on having fun and messing around with each other.
But for people 'getting their panties in a bunch', you didn't note angling was a prevalent part of the game in this thread until after you got called out on the behavior.
Pretty sure the reaction you got was rational and normal. Someone bragging about angling is going to get the needle from most folks.
Sorry but that Laliberte hand is not even close to the same situation. He charitably cut Benyamine a deal.
Actions described by the OP is an angle shoot. There's no gray area here. It's pretty black and white what took place. You even noted that you would have folded if he reacted differently.
But that being said, sounds like the focus is on having fun and messing around with each other.
But for people 'getting their panties in a bunch', you didn't note angling was a prevalent part of the game in this thread until after you got called out on the behavior.
Pretty sure the reaction you got was rational and normal. Someone bragging about angling is going to get the needle from most folks.
bergs
Royal Flush
I would’ve sat there like a stone and not said a fucking thing.
I don’t think it’s an angle shoot but it’s probably taking advantage of a newer weaker player. If I were the host I might be concerned that newer players might get spooked by this kind of thing and not come back, particularly if they see you as a poker personality. You pretty much took bluffs out of this kids game for a few sessions going forward.
Edit: unless the kid is degen, then fuck it, whatevs
I don’t think it’s an angle shoot but it’s probably taking advantage of a newer weaker player. If I were the host I might be concerned that newer players might get spooked by this kind of thing and not come back, particularly if they see you as a poker personality. You pretty much took bluffs out of this kids game for a few sessions going forward.
Edit: unless the kid is degen, then fuck it, whatevs
OP
OP
He seems to be ok.
We're playing as we speak, and he bluffed and showed bottom pair on a broadway-heavy board to take down a 120k pot. We’re all degens. 12 shots in.
bergs
Royal Flush
Angleshoot (in my mind anyway) is when a player does something to conceal or falsify information during the hand. Stuff like covering your cards to get later players to act first, faking an action with chips, saying they hadn’t looked at their hand when they had, etc.
Krish gave the guy perfect information, he just put the decision back on the guy who shoved. Some games are ok with this stuff, some aren’t.
Krish gave the guy perfect information, he just put the decision back on the guy who shoved. Some games are ok with this stuff, some aren’t.
I don’t think that there is anyone who can be described as a newer, weaker, player in a $100/$200/$400 NL game, period. If you can play at those stakes, then you should be prepared. If this was $3/$6 limit I might feel differently, but one had best best a good / great player at these stakes.
bergs
Royal Flush
I’m sure the first time people moved up to those stakes, they felt a little like they were starting all over again with a different dynamic. 5/10 NLHE feels a lot different than 1/2, and this is a much, much bigger jump for most players.
My point was it may turn off people new to that game. They might not feel comfortable with that speech play and may look for a different game, and that probably plays into the hosts thoughts a bit…
TheDuke
Full House
Here's a different way to test OP's actions to gauge whether it's an angle or not.
Walk into 10 random card rooms and sit down at a table of complete strangers.
Attempt OP's actions and see how well that works out for you. I'll bet 10 out of the 10 rooms, no one is going to be ok with it. And good chance you'll be kicked out.
I'm not disputing that the home game in question is okay with it and likely many other games as well. But let's be real, there's no question it's angling.
Wow, that’s quite the hand! Thanks for sharing.
Live reads ftw.
If it’s allowed and known practise, then how can we argue about the move. Personally I would very much not like it, but then I wouldn’t have played in such a game to begin with.
Live reads ftw.
If it’s allowed and known practise, then how can we argue about the move. Personally I would very much not like it, but then I wouldn’t have played in such a game to begin with.
bergs
Royal Flush
I agree with you, but this game is unlike anything you’ll find in a public cardroom. It’s an exclusive home game. There are rules in state regulated casino poker rooms that don’t apply to this game.
I can see the host being pretty pissed off and painted into a corner by Krish’s actions, and the new player feeling picked on and isolated a bit and not wanting to come back. I can understand the host if he had concerns around players not wanting to be subjected to speech play.
I just can’t see angle shoot though. He tabled his cards and gave his opponent near-perfect information and a choice. There was no effort to deceive.
i agree, by the letter of the law the governs a modern licensed cardroom, this is an angleshoot. but to me, it's no worse than persson's calling before garrett bet on HSP, to influence garrett's decision to check rather than bet. so you win this argument but it's largely semantic, imo.
to me, what is actually infuriating and worse, imo, is the common phenomenon of people mucking before their turn, which is NEVER penalized in any way, in any well run cardroom. meaning, player A bets, maybe a bluff, and while player B is thinking, player C mucks, thereby inducing a call from player B. the happens ALL the time and the only thing that happens is a player like me scolds player C, who apologizes. to me this is worse than some psychology in a headsup river situation.
to me, what is actually infuriating and worse, imo, is the common phenomenon of people mucking before their turn, which is NEVER penalized in any way, in any well run cardroom. meaning, player A bets, maybe a bluff, and while player B is thinking, player C mucks, thereby inducing a call from player B. the happens ALL the time and the only thing that happens is a player like me scolds player C, who apologizes. to me this is worse than some psychology in a headsup river situation.
I’m not sure I would consider this an angle. WW just having fun on the river. Villian could have completely ignored it. And hell, hero showed his hand, how is that an angle!?! Haha fun recap.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Preflop, I'm making it $3500.
On the flop, I'm taking a Nash approach and checking about 75% of the time and betting small about 25% of the time.
On the turn, I'm heavily leaning toward villain not having made the straight. I actually think AT is a fairly likely holding here. I'm probably betting for value and folding to a raise as played. However, if I had been able to keep the pot small on the flop and it got checked through, then I would have given up on the turn. But I think we got a fair amount of information in this hand on what the villain's likely holdings are as played. If they had a hand like A9s, 98s or 99, we probably would have gotten raised on that flop.
Assuming my reads on this player have been solid so far, I'm calling his obvious bluff on the river. But if my reads have been off with this player, then I'm folding it. But villain's actions don't add up, and that's usually a good time to call with weak holdings unless the villain has proven to be a tricky player. This one is all about the player read though, which is the best flavor of poker.
On the flop, I'm taking a Nash approach and checking about 75% of the time and betting small about 25% of the time.
On the turn, I'm heavily leaning toward villain not having made the straight. I actually think AT is a fairly likely holding here. I'm probably betting for value and folding to a raise as played. However, if I had been able to keep the pot small on the flop and it got checked through, then I would have given up on the turn. But I think we got a fair amount of information in this hand on what the villain's likely holdings are as played. If they had a hand like A9s, 98s or 99, we probably would have gotten raised on that flop.
Assuming my reads on this player have been solid so far, I'm calling his obvious bluff on the river. But if my reads have been off with this player, then I'm folding it. But villain's actions don't add up, and that's usually a good time to call with weak holdings unless the villain has proven to be a tricky player. This one is all about the player read though, which is the best flavor of poker.
Maybe not super likely but what if he’s bluffing with T8s/T7s/JTs. That’s the worst feeling ever when you pick off a big bluff only to find out the guy was bluffing with the best hand.
Edit: obviously he wasn’t since he mucked after seeing the QQ, but I mean if we were to call the bet as normal.
Edit: obviously he wasn’t since he mucked after seeing the QQ, but I mean if we were to call the bet as normal.
Create an account or login to comment
You must be a member in order to leave a comment
Create account
Create an account and join our community. It's easy!
Log in
Already have an account? Log in here.
