Tough river spot in deepstacked $.50/$1 (Mavens) (1 Viewer)

[Senzrock]

Game: NL Hold'em (80 - 200) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Mavens
Table: Mixed 0.50/1.00 6-Max (NL + PLO)

Seat 3, UTG: Hero ($532.75) holding []
Button: Villain ($797.25)

Action:
Hero raises to 3
Folds to button
Villain raises to $10.50
Folds back to hero, I call $10.50.

Context: This is a fairly loose/fun Superbowl home game, sitting 6-handed, no rake. Players are overall average to slightly below average NL players. I consider myself quite a bit better than every player at the table, and deep-stacked I am looking for excuses to play hands in many situations. Preflop, it's a loose call, especially out of position. Generally a pretty -EV call but again, due to stack depths and skill advantage, I don't mind playing a few speculative hands here, leaning on my experience to get away cheap or win a big hand. For those pointing out that this is an easy fold - I generally agree with you, but again understanding the dynamics, I think this is an OK call.

** Flop ** []

Hero checks
Villain bets $15 into $22 pot.

Action to Hero?

 

[Eriks]

Call

 

[Mojo1312]

Raisy-Daisy.

 

[mipevi]

Call flop, check/call turn, check/decide river.

 

[Kain8]

I wouldn't want to get blown off top pair and a straight draw by check-raising here being this deep. Happy to see a turn for the bet that was made.

 

[kmccormick100]

Definitely a call in my book, though this flop should hit your range a bit more than the 3bettor, I expect to see a fair bit of AA, KK and AK for that large a flop bet on this board.

(unless this is sicko, then just fold pre. I got stacked in almost an identical spot calling 3 streets thinking he was playing back at me, he just had aces)

 

[moechar]

Idk the player on the button, but he could be 3 betting you light pre flop knowing you're playing a wider range. And then C-Betting thinking the board hits his assumed 3-betting range more than your loose open range. I would call and re-evaluate on the turn.

 

[Senzrock]

Raisy-Daisy.

Raising is an interesting option, care to elaborate why you think this makes sense here?

 

[Senzrock]

Call flop, check/call turn, check/decide river.

Are there any turns that we are either folding or potentially raising or are you 100% check calling all turns?

 

[Senzrock]

I wouldn't want to get blown off top pair and a straight draw by check-raising here being this deep. Happy to see a turn for the bet that was made.

What kinds of hands are we worried about getting blown off our hand by? AK semi-bluffs? Clubs? Random kamikaze bluff?

 

[Senzrock]

Definitely a call in my book, though this flop should hit your range a bit more than the 3bettor, I expect to see a fair bit of AA, KK and AK for that large a flop bet on this board.

(unless this is sicko, then just fold pre. I got stacked in almost an identical spot calling 3 streets thinking he was playing back at me, he just had aces)

If we are up exactly against that range (I agree we most likely see a lot of that, and less QQ/JJ since we/board blocks those hands), what are we hoping for on later streets? To bluff catch or hope AK checks behind? Check-fold to perceived overpairs?

 

[Senzrock]

Idk the player on the button, but he could be 3 betting you light pre flop knowing you're playing a wider range. And then C-Betting thinking the board hits his assumed 3-betting range more than your loose open range. I would call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Good point about him 3-betting button wider. My read on this specific layer (very recreational) is that he generally is not 3betting with like a 87s or small pair type of hand. Like @kmccormick100 writes, I do like this flop for my perceived range. I should have basically all the KTs, 9s, QJs and even some JJ, QQs. Also I should have a ton of hands like the one I am holding (pair + draw).

 

[kmccormick100]

If we are up exactly against that range (I agree we most likely see a lot of that, and less QQ/JJ since we/board blocks those hands), what are we hoping for on later streets? To bluff catch or hope AK checks behind? Check-fold to perceived overpairs?

Obviously an offsuit 8 or K is ideal. On a brick turn I think we're forced to check-call again and reevaluate on a blank river based on bet sizing and villain history. A club turn could freeze the action and let us get to showdown cheaply.

 

[Eriks]

What position are you opening from? I wouldn’t leave out hands like AQs/KQs from his range, maybe even stuff like KTs

 

[Senzrock]

What position are you opening from? I wouldn’t leave out hands like AQs/KQs from his range, maybe even stuff like KTs

Sorry if that was unclear, I am UTG.

 

[Kain8]

What kinds of hands are we worried about getting blown off our hand by? AK semi-bluffs? Clubs? Random kamikaze bluff?

Sets, Jx of clubs ( especially), top two pair, either overpair, are all candidates to 3-bet the flop should they get checkraised. They either want to pile in the money now as a favourite or price the draws out.

Now that is of course against competent players. If the villain is a maniac who will try to impose his will against an opponent by punting half his stack off, then conventional wisdom goes out the door and you can happily bloat the pot with a check-raise.

 

[Eriks]

Sorry if that was unclear, I am UTG.

Thanks, this deep it would certainly make sense to 3-bet a wide range on the button. Even if you open from utg. Is he aware that you open fairly light in this game?

 

[mipevi]

Are there any turns that we are either folding or potentially raising or are you 100% check calling all turns?

We can't fold the turn ever, because there is a tough spot waiting on the river! If you turn the straight or the / comes you could raise for value in a loose/fun game, but when BTN continues the river tends to be tough. Could play small ball deep OOP, but since you decided to play an iffy hand pre, prolly should try to get max profit when you hit.

 

[Payback]

Fold Pre. QTo should be an UTG fold, even in 6 max and even more importantly when you are this deep. Flop should be a C/C.

 

[Senzrock]

Fold Pre. QTo should be an UTG fold, even in 6 max and even more importantly when you are this deep. Flop should be a C/C.

I agree that once 3-bet, QTo should generally be folded but you fold QT in a deepstacked game where you feel like you have an edge when you are UTG? That feels too tight.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Do you really have an edge if you’re calling 3 bets with qto out of position?

 

[Senzrock]

Do you really have an edge if you’re calling 3 bets with qto out of position?

Asking the tough questions! Two answers: If I am unaware that QT is a -EV call and I am still making this call regularly, then yes, my edge might be less than assumed. However given my explanation, and my data that backs up my claim of being the biggest winner in the game, my sense is that QT is OK as long as we proceed cautiously. But yes, even strong players can't outrun the respective hand ranges if they consistently call 3bets with significantly weak ranges.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I've found myself in this kind of spot more than once—soft, short-handed game where I'm a big favorite and feel like I can get out of line a lot. Usually it's when you're playing with a bunch of guys who have never read a poker book and think GTO has to do with cars. Often respond to raises by turning weak-tight unless they catch a monster. Those kinds of folks.

The thing is, you can only get so out of line. Your ability to push your newbfish opponents around depends on them not catching big hands. Once one of them catches a big hand, you (a) probably can't bully him out of the pot, especially if you've been hyper-aggressive all night, and (b) need to make sure you're playing cards that work as a come-from-behind hand with real potential to stack your Villain.

QTo is not such a hand. QTo is a great hand for raising preflop and then taking it down with a c-bet after Villain checks an ace-high flop. Your cards may as well be blank; you're playing mostly for the value of aggression.

Here, the preflop raise is okay if it's that kind of game, but once Villain 3-bets, fold. The main problem is that this is a reverse implied odds situation. Against a preflop 3-bettor, the majority of your bread-and-butter flops with QT are just traps that will leave you outkicked or against an overpair, or at least enough in fear of being beat that you can't proceed confidently. By folding, you not only avoid this trap but deprive Villain of getting any more value on what is likely a very strong hand. Get the next hand underway and get back to beating up on this soft table.

As played, flat the $15 on the flop, I guess. Not really a great spot, though. The bare pair of queens is likely a trap hand, improving to two pair puts a four-straight on board, and hitting a straight will scare off your opponent. The clubs just make the picture even uglier. Maybe trips would be good, but that's a two-outer and probably won't get any action. Just meh all around, and this is among the better flops you can hit with QTo.

 

[Jimulacrum]

[E]ven strong players can't outrun the respective hand ranges if they consistently call 3bets with significantly weak ranges.

/thread

 

[Kain8]

playing with a bunch of guys who have never read a poker book and think GTO has to do with cars. Often respond to raises by turning weak-tight unless they catch a monster. Those kinds of folks.

I've never felt so personally attacked ever.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I've never felt so personally attacked ever.

Just wait until I raise into your big blind and c-bet you off the pot for the 100th time without looking at my cards.

 

[Mojo1312]

Raising is an interesting option, care to elaborate why you think this makes sense here?

I will give you two reasons:

1
2

 

[Senzrock]

ACTION CONTINUES:

Game: NL Hold'em (80 - 200) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Mavens
Table: Mixed 0.50/1.00 6-Max (NL + PLO)

Seat 3, UTG: Hero ($532.75) holding []
Button: Villain ($797.25)

Action:
Hero raises to 3
Folds to button
Villain raises to $10.50
Folds back to hero, I call $10.50.

Context: This is a fairly loose/fun Superbowl home game, sitting 6-handed, no rake. Players are overall average to slightly below average NL players. I consider myself quite a bit better than every player at the table, and deep-stacked I am looking for excuses to play hands in many situations. Preflop, it's a loose call, especially out of position. Generally a pretty -EV call but again, due to stack depths and skill advantage, I don't mind playing a few speculative hands here, leaning on my experience to get away cheap or win a big hand. For those pointing out that this is an easy fold - I generally agree with you, but again understanding the dynamics, I think this is an OK call.

** Flop ** []

I decide to check-raise the flop feeling like this solidly smacks my range, and that I can probably get AK to fold here and take it down. Additionally, if villain has a hand like AA/KK, he is kind of handcuffed here and will have to play future streets more passively. My plan if villain smooth calls, since it pretty much caps his range, was to barrel him off of AA/KK (figuring that we were in fact deep stacked enough for this to be a viable strategy). While players understand me as an aggressive player, they rarely see me check-raise, bomb, bomb without at least two pair here so I would be counting on fold equity.

Hero checks
Villain bets $15 into $22 pot.
Hero raises to $41.25
Villain calls

** Turn ** [] (Pot is $105)
Hero?

 

[Payback]

I agree that once 3-bet, QTo should generally be folded but you fold QT in a deepstacked game where you feel like you have an edge when you are UTG? That feels too tight.

The only place you have an edge from UTG is against the blinds, beyond that UTG is the least profitable position because your playing OOP vs. the rest of the table. I wouldn't even open this, let alone call a 3-bet sitting 500+ blinds deep OOP. This flop is one of the best ones you could hope for and even then you end up being a situation where you aren't sure what to do. If I'm opening UTG, I'd rather have 76s or A5s to give more board coverage/nutted hands.

 

[kmccormick100]

Raising this flop is repping a pretty narrow value range and a lot of semi bluffs with a ton of equity, I don't think a villain is folding an overpair to a single raise on this board, maybe AK goes away sometimes. The problem with playing these types of hands OoP is the types of spots you find yourself in on the turn now - there's a decent chance you're behind at this point to an overpair or AQ / KQ. I assume you're going to want to keep putting pressure on now, so you probably have to continue for something like $70 into $105, and hope it goes check check on the river if you don't improve, of which I expect to lose a decent amount of showdowns.