Cash Game Yet another AA hand... (1 Viewer)

[WedgeRock]

Pot $60ish
$12 x 4 = $48

There must have been 6ish limpers for $2. At least that's how I assumed the pot got to $60ish.

 

[Josh Kifer]

QQ should certainly be an open or a 3bet out of the blinds, but there are definitely players out there who will limp/call with anything but AA/KK/AK pre-flop for fear or an overcard in the window. In the same vein K5s or Q5s are most certainly folds, but some players get extra attached to any combo of suited cards, especially in a multi-way limped pot. (I don't think we saw if there were or weren't any limps, but I assume there were given the stakes.)

Uh, yeah, he could call with anything. But we have to think the most logical steps. Those would be a three bet with Q's or K's since a 12 buck raise isn't very large and k5/Q5 fold. Of course it could go this way... It's poker, folks.... But again, if someone is calling raises with K5 and Q5, all ya do is reup and wait for them to keep pulling that bullshit. You will get your money back...

Yeah, people can get sucked in with a multi way pot, but queens or kings arnt gonna smooth call a three way pot, they don't wanna play against two hands... I'd think they would wanna squeeze someone into going out... And two callers into a third isn't giving you a pile of money with the blinds, you normally get sucked in with a pile of callers and your getting 5-6 to one for the money.

 

[v1pe]

Uh, yeah, he could call with anything. But we have to think the most logical steps. Those would be a three bet with Q's or K's since a 12 buck raise isn't very large and k5/Q5 fold. Of course it could go this way... It's poker, folks.... But again, if someone is calling raises with K5 and Q5, all ya do is reup and wait for them to keep pulling that bullshit. You will get your money back...

Yeah, people can get sucked in with a multi way pot, but queens or kings arnt gonna smooth call a three way pot, they don't wanna play against two hands... I'd think they would wanna squeeze someone into going out... And two callers into a third isn't giving you a pile of money with the blinds, you normally get sucked in with a pile of callers and your getting 5-6 to one for the money.

I think KK and QQ are *possible* but not likely enough that I would include them in trying to estimate our equity (I didn't put them in the calculation I posted).

I think K5 and Q5 are much more likely in this spot, especially for the V who check/3bet. Of course KQ is more likely here from either player.

Yes, we are super happy to play with people who are overcalling K5 and Q5 type hands, but sometimes they hit and we have to be able to tell when to get away from overcards in these situations. I think facing a C/R and a 3bet shove is probably one of the best spots to go ahead and lay it down.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I think KK and QQ are *possible* but not likely enough that I would include them in trying to estimate our equity (I didn't put them in the calculation I posted).

I think K5 and Q5 are much more likely in this spot, especially for the V who check/3bet. Of course KQ is more likely here from either player.

Yes, we are super happy to play with people who are overcalling K5 and Q5 type hands, but sometimes they hit and we have to be able to tell when to get away from overcards in these situations. I think facing a C/R and a 3bet shove is probably one of the best spots to go ahead and lay it down.

Only reason I'd lay this down is not wanting to have to beat two hands and not knowing where I'm at, but there is no way I'd be folding it out of fear of k5/q5. Again, anyone can play everything, but if on a random rainbow flop your gonna fold aces because they *could* have a random rag two pair, I don't know how you could ever play aces. That's why I would be raising more on the flop, but that's not an option anymore in this scenario.. this is less then ideal, but again... Ya shove, grumble, and hope you got it in ahead...

 

[dkersey]

Outcome:

When caller 1 raised, it made me think a little bit, but I was going to call. When the 2nd caller raised all-in, it certainly made me think a lot more. Had he just called, I probably would have called the raise. But with the all-in, its now its going to risk most of my stack. I was worried about 1 of them having KQ. I wasn't worried about a set because as someone said above, someone should have raised pre-flop.

At this point, I start talking to them (something I normally don't do). They look nervous/serious. I ask them if they have KQ. Of course they don't answer, but caller 2 looks away when I ask that.

I figure 1 of them has KQ and I am behind. I take a deep sigh, and I fold. Because there was no more action, I wanted to fold my AA up but when you do that you either look like a genius or a dufus. I think I had a pretty good table image, so I folded them down, not to give out any additional information (good or bad).

Turn is Kx, River is Qx. The 2 callers both turn over KxQx! I would have made top 2 pair, but they made 2 three-of-a-kinds...ok, a full house Kings over Queens. They chop. I think in the end, they each only made about $30 with their boats.

What are the odds of that? I was just glad I wasn't too in love with my AA, and got away relatively unscathed.

Thanks for the discussion guys. I was glad to see some folds.

 

[davin]

Ouch

 

[v1pe]

Only reason I'd lay this down is not wanting to have to beat two hands and not knowing where I'm at, but there is no way I'd be folding it out of fear of k5/q5. Again, anyone can play everything, but if on a random rainbow flop your gonna fold aces because they *could* have a random rag two pair, I don't know how you could ever play aces. That's why I would be raising more on the flop, but that's not an option anymore in this scenario.. this is less then ideal, but again... Ya shove, grumble, and hope you got it in ahead...

It isn't that we should be afraid of a random K5 or Q5, it's that our exact holding against the potential ranges of our villains here (given the action) simply doesn't hold up well.

We are probably only beating exactly one made hand AK (includes combos of AKo and AKs, yes this should have been raised preflop, but sometimes it won't be). If we think we are against all the draws (JTo, JTs, AJo, AJs) we are a huge favorite, but I really don't see most players at these stakes check/raise or check/3bet anything less than something like TP w/ OESD or NFD. Most likely I think we are up against 2P or 55, which we are a huge dog to. Given tendencies of most players at these stakes (loose/passive) I think we can heavily weight their holdings after this action towards the 2P/set range.

Sucks, but I think hero made the right fold here.

 

[WedgeRock]

The 2 callers both turn over KxQx!

Surprised Caller 1 had that much hand. I don't know why he didn't check-shove instead of just check-min raising you. Maybe he wanted the other players in the hand.

Good play folding AA down. True or not, the rest of the table could have seen that as exploitable.

 

[Perthmike]

I understand all the comments about both villains ranges etc and the price we are getting to call, but I just feel at this level (especially in perth) 95% of the time people are only jamming here with a monster.

Not counting semi bluff draws, I can count the all in bluffs I’ve ever seen at 1/3 on one hand. I’ve learnt the hard way at 1/3 to lay down my aa when faced with crazy allins on a dry looking flop or turn. It’s always a stupid 2 pair or set.

Entirely different ball game at 2/5 and 5/5 though.

Good fold op.

 

[WedgeRock]

While I'm tanking, the 1st caller pushes the rest of the chips over the betting line. At this casino, anything over the line, can't be taken back. The dealer barks at the guy that its not his turn. He tries to pull the chips back, but the dealer barks at him again, to leave those chips right there. So I know he is calling.

So is out-of-turn action binding? Or does Caller 1 retain the right to act, but not the ability to remove the chips (they are just forfeited)? I know that doesn't make sense in this situation, because he committed the rest of his stack. But say stacks were:

Caller 1 - $180
Caller 2 - $90
Hero - $190

Caller 1 check-raises to $60, and Caller 2 goes all in for $78 ($18 more than Caller 1's bet). Caller 3 folds and Caller 1 calls the $18 out-of-turn. Dealer holds the action back on you and you shove for $178. Can Player 1 surrender the $18 and fold?

 

[dkersey]

So is out-of-turn action binding? Or does Caller 1 retain the right to act, but not the ability to remove the chips (they are just forfeited)? I know that doesn't make sense in this situation, because he committed the rest of his stack. But say stacks were:

Caller 1 - $180
Caller 2 - $90
Hero - $190

Caller 1 check-raises to $60, and Caller 2 goes all in for $78 ($18 more than Caller 1's bet). Caller 3 folds and Caller 1 calls the $18 out-of-turn. Dealer holds the action back on you and you shove for $178. Can Player 1 surrender the $18 and fold?

I believe it is binding unless the action is changed. So in your example, my shove is a raise and is new action, and thus I believe he can fold. I'm pretty sure about this. I also believe he has to forfeit the $18 out of turn because the chips crossed the betting line. I'm not as sure about this. This is Winstar in OK. Does anyone else know about this?

 

[WedgeRock]

So he still retains the right to act, pending whether the action to him has changed or not (same as standard rules), but his right to those chips is gone.

If that's correct, I don't hate the rule. Out-of-turn action can be an angle shoot. Sure, premature action is binding if the action to him doesn't change, but if it *does* change, he can choose to act differently and other than an admonishment from the dealer/floor, there is no penalty for his actions which could (and in this case did) have an affect on the others at the table (here, Caller 2 might have gotten a call from you but for Caller 1's premature action). By ruling the chips of his premature action are part of the pot, there is a monetary sting if he does choose to act differently than he prematurely declared. Punishment for his angle shoot, and even if it was innocent, it reminds him to wait until action is on him.

Sure, there is no difference in this pot, but it could be a difference in another scenario. Of course, a good dealer/floor will prevent premature action from being an angle shoot, but once it happens, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

 

[dkersey]

After the guys revealed their hands (both KQ), I was very relieved that I folded by AAs. I turned my head to the guy beside me away from the dealer and told him I had AA, and we had a short conversation. I turned back to the table, and now I saw where 1 guy had KK and the other guy had QQ! I looked at it for a second and thought I misread it. I would have still lost to Quads over Quads, but the casino has a bad beat around $40K for a beat such as this. Nobody else was excited, so I asked the dealer isn't that the bad beat jackpot? She said yes, if that was how it was dealt. Apparently when I turned away, as a joke, she switched 1 card from each player to make pocket pairs...quads. That would have been sweet to get table share, but not so...

 

[Lemonzest]

I think it is an easy fold tbh. How many flop bets get check raised live? In my experience not very many. People at 1/2 live only check raise with the nuts ...they don't usually have any check raise bluffs in their range except for maybe the straight draw. Even so most players just flat with the straight draw imo.

The vast majority of the time a check raise on the flop means they have a nutty hand.

 

[upNdown]

Apparently when I turned away, as a joke, she switched 1 card from each player to make pocket pairs...quads. That would have been sweet to get table share, but not so...

Not to sound like a party pooper, but IMO, a professional dealer should never mess around like that.

 

[dkersey]

Not to sound like a party pooper, but IMO, a professional dealer should never mess around like that.

I was surprised she did that too. This is a VERY experienced dealer so she probably has seen it all, and recognized how close it was to the BBJ, and did it out of boredom to amuse herself. This started a conversation about manipulation of cards and what the video could and could not see, where she commented she never do anything like that as it would put her job at risk. I was ok with it because I was still relieved i made the right fold and saved myself 130.

 

[Ronoh]

Not to sound like a party pooper, but IMO, a professional dealer should never mess around like that.

Think you're reading too much in to it. She obviously wasn't trying to fool anyone, it's a "wouldn't THAT have been fun" moment after the hand is over. I'm sure there was no slight-of-hand and that every move was made in open obvious view of all players... only reason it stunned OP is because he was talking to the guy next to him. Nothing remotely unprofessional about it.

 

[boltonguy]

Easy fold for me.

Absolutely

 

[Steve Birrer]

Not even sure why there is a discussion. I think a bit when the first guy goes all in but when the second guy, out of turn, also goes all in I snap fold.There is almost no scenario that has been discussed here that gives me any hope I may have the best hand. Not when two of them have gone all in.

Here's my read without having been at the table.

1. One or both of them were slow playing KK or QQ in the first place.
2. One of them had 55. Not unlikely at all giving the betting.
3. One of them had KQ (or both as it turned out).
4. One of them had K5 or Q5 (although I am less worried about that given the preflop raise unless they are really donks)

Bottom line is that when they both shove I know I am dead. They aren't both all in either bluffing or on a draw (open ended straight draw). I am beat.