Winter is Coming (1 Viewer)

[k9dr]

I understand, they are cool chips, and lots of people want them. In my conversations with Mental Nomad, he stated that both Stocky and J5 are on board with the project. Although I would prefer them to not be mass produced, I know that is not a legal position. Mental Nomad has assured me that he has taken measures to insure that Sun-Fly will not use the artwork beyond the scope of this group buy. I will be disappointed if these start showing up on eBay.

 

[Rhodeman77]

IF one of my friends would like to buy some of these chips (if they are even made) I will have them sign up and make 10 quick posts and all will be right in the world.

Because that is so much different than helping them out if facilitating them getting the chips myself.

 

[courage]

What K9DR wants is legally irrelevant, but personally, if it was me, I wouldn't do anything with them if the current owner said not to (particularly when the current owner is personally known to me, played at my house, generously relieved me of the burden of having to rack up my chips at the end of the night, and most importantly is a well respected community member).

Agreed but...

 

[Pokerdweebz]

IF one of my friends would like to buy some of these chips (if they are even made) I will have them sign up and make 10 quick posts and all will be right in the world.

Because that is so much different than helping them out if facilitating them getting the chips myself.

I applaud your persistence for missing the entire point

 

[BGinGA]

IF one of my friends would like to buy some of these chips (if they are even made) I will have them sign up and make 10 quick posts and all will be right in the world.

Because that is so much different than helping them out if facilitating them getting the chips myself.

 

[Jeff]

Mark, if I were you, I'd be locking down the Suicide Queen set now with the original owner, because there are many people here that give NO shits about appropriating the design of your chips. I don't know about the legal ownership of the design, but Stylin, upNdown and Rhodeman certainly post as though they believe they have more rights to the design than you do.

If Stocky and J5 decide to go against your wishes ... -1 for them both.

 

[upNdown]

Mark, if I were you, I'd be locking down the Suicide Queen set now with the original owner, because there are many people here that give NO shits about appropriating the design of your chips. I don't know about the legal ownership of the design, but Stylin, upNdown and Rhodeman certainly post as though they believe they have more rights to the design than you do.
If Stocky and J5 decide to go against your wishes ... -1 for them both.

Slow down there. I don't appreciate that at all. I've done some thinking out loud because I'm actually THINKING and trying to learn the perspectives of the parties and the community. Please tell me where I said or implied anything that deserved that response, @Jeff

 

[Tommy]

I will have them sign up and make 10 quick posts and all will be right in the world.

I'd be deleting those 10 quick posts too.

 

[Rhodeman77]

@Jeff I pointed out that @stocky said his intention was to still have a ceramic group buy of the chips in the raffle sale of the original chips.

I have said too that the ownership rights of art work for custom sets should be expressly stated in the sale to avoid such confusion.

I have never said it is okay to steal someone's design, and don't appreciate you saying as much.

 

[Stylin]

Mark, if I were you, I'd be locking down the Suicide Queen set now with the original owner, because there are many people here that give NO shits about appropriating the design of your chips. I don't know about the legal ownership of the design, but Stylin, upNdown and Rhodeman certainly post as though they believe they have more rights to the design than you do.

If Stocky and J5 decide to go against your wishes ... -1 for them both.

This is completely unnecessary. Stick to the facts and stop putting words in my mouth I never said. I've made no claims to any rights. I've just pointed out fact that you obviously can't handle.

 

[bergs]

Rob, I'd be inclined to agree with you morally if the gb chips in question were the exact same ASM/CPC chips that Mark bought and owns (regardless of anything else, legal or otherwise).

But they are not -- they are essentially tributes, not copies, made on a different medium, will undoubtedly look and feel differently, and apparently have the blessing of the actual artwork owners (yet to be finitely determined, but it's looking that way).

I think we're talking about inlays, not the material, right? If someone took my Truman's House chips and put them on ceramic solids, I'd still be pissed as hell and I think everyone here would agree that it was unfair of the person authorizing the ceramics to life my artwork.

How similar is the inlay artwork? I haven't seen them but based on the thread it sounded like people were talking about the actual artwork on the chips that K9 acquired via raffle.

 

[kk405]

I don't have a direct horse in this race, but have talked to @Mental Nomad via PM and email to help out with the repacking/shipping of this potential GB, as well as the upcoming Bwalk GB #2, as we would try to combine the two orders and savage on shipping, handling and try to bring the cost of the chips down as well.

As a side note, I did get the permission of @p5woody for the usage of Bwalk design

Regarding the controversy in this thread, are we really that desperate that we can't come up with some new designs so that we don't have to get involved in these controversial legal/moral issues?

 

[ssanel54]

this thread got ugly quick.

I don't think I will be participating in this group buy, but I had also gone pretty far down the road with Stocky in building my own set of these. I had even offered to buy Stockys set for his asking price, in order to retain the originals and the right to add on to the set, however he decided to let the auction play out instead. I would put a lot more weight on Mark's wishes if the chips did not come to him via a random drawing . Still, if I was going to proceed with my original project, I would have included Mark. Stocky and J5 in the process.

 

[Ghoti]

I unfortunately haven't had the privilege of reading GRRM's letter, but considering a group buy on some niche poker chip site--a group buy limited to members of said site--as mass production seems to be pretty warped thinking to me (assuming Sunfly doesn't steal the art, or Rhodeman doesn't place orders for all his buddies at Sunday school), especially considering GRRM's stature. That being said, I understand K9's side.

 

[detroitdad]

I get the gist of both the technical side of this with points being made that this project would move forward even with the sale/raffle of the chips. I've only hung out with Mark a few times. Every time it consisted of three straight days of poker and bullshitting. He is a fantastic guy. As friendly as anyone that I've met from this site. Hell, he even offered me a room two years in a row at his meet ups. Since he isn't condoning this GB (whether it takes place or not) I'll be out. Its starting to feel dirty.

 

[Stylin]

I think we're talking about inlays, not the material, right? If someone took my Truman's House chips and put them on ceramic solids, I'd still be pissed as hell and I think everyone here would agree that it was unfair of the person authorizing the ceramics to life my artwork.

How similar is the inlay artwork? I haven't seen them but based on the thread it sounded like people were talking about the actual artwork on the chips that K9 acquired via raffle.

You keep acting like people are stealing something. Nobody's making back room deals with third party artists to duplicate an inlay. The original creator and somebody he chose to continue his journey are working with the original artist who owns the design. I see nothing wrong with that.

Add to that the fact that the new owner of the chips bought a ticket in a thread after this group buy was discussed and confirmed to be happening after the sale? I don't think there's much more to talk about.

 

[Ronoh]

If someone took my Truman's House chips and put them on ceramic solids, I'd still be pissed as hell and I think everyone here would agree that it was unfair of the person authorizing the ceramics to life my artwork.

But that's not what is happening here. Stocky isn't doing anything shady... he sold some chips. He made it known before, during and after the sale that he was going forward with these ceramic versions, he was never hiding anything.

It was known two years ago... no one had any issue.

He said it during the raffle that sent this outstanding set to Mark... no one had any issue. He posted it right in the raffle thread and not one single person who bought a ticket (or otherwise) batted an eye.

I'm not understanding why he is being painted in a bad light for moving forward with something he has always said would be done, something no one had a single negative word to say about until today. I also have no idea why some people are being ostracized for pointing that out.

There are a whole lot of opinions in this thread but those are the (non-alternate) facts of the case.

Personally I was never buying these regardless of any of this and hope they don't end up getting made but that is a friendly bias that I feel doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

[Stylin]

But that's not what is happening here. Stocky isn't doing anything shady... he sold some chips. He made it known before, during and after the sale that he was going forward with these ceramic versions, he was never hiding anything.

It was known two years ago... no one had any issue.

He said it during the raffle that sent this outstanding set to Mark... no one had any issue. He posted it right in the raffle thread and not one single person who bought a ticket (or otherwise) batted an eye.

I'm not understanding why he is being painted in a bad light for moving forward with something he has always said would be done, something no one had a single negative word to say about until today. I also have no idea why some people are being ostracized for pointing that out.

There are a whole lot of opinions in this thread but those are the (non-alternate) facts of the case.

Personally I was never buying these regardless of any of this and hope they don't end up getting made but that is a friendly bias that I feel doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

Well said. Finally some logic. Quoted for truth.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I am curious if Stocky were running this GB (rather than mental nomad during stocky's brief sabbatical from chipping) if there would be any of this griping.

That said I can totally understand Mark's concern about THIS TOURNEY set. The comments about HOF and SQ chips are pretty crazy hyperbole (I respect Jeff and his opinion very much too)

I also don't think that 30,000 chips bought amongst 30 or so members is considered mass produced either

I was thinking about getting a small set of cash and Tourney chips, but am more than likely out on tourney chips out of respect for Mark, unless he is satisfied in the end.

I too had hoped to take Paul up on his offer eventually to have my own CPC set as well someday....

 

[nitzilla]

C'mon guys, 5 PAGES and no popcorn gif.........!!!! We're losing it here.....

Carry on....

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Well you guys can do as you please. I'm not even considering any of these until there is confirmed permission from GRRM. Without reading the letter I have to assume Stocky stated that the chips were for his sole purchase. I would be incredibly surprised if he said anything remotely implying these would be produced for more than one person. Due to this I feel like anything resembling something other than a sole person ordering/owning/etc. is unacceptable. The rest of the drama is icing on the cake for me.

 

[k9dr]

this thread got ugly quick.

I don't think I will be participating in this group buy, but I had also gone pretty far down the road with Stocky in building my own set of these. I had even offered to buy Stockys set for his asking price, in order to retain the originals and the right to add on to the set, however he decided to let the auction play out instead. I would put a lot more weight on Mark's wishes if the chips did not come to him via a random drawing . Still, if I was going to proceed with my original project, I would have included Mark. Stocky and J5 in the process.

I guess that is part of what bothers me - how did the group buy get this far with no contact at all with the current owner of the set. Regardless of artwork rights or anything else, it is simply the right thing to do.

The fact that I won the chips in a raffle is irrelevant. I too, was going to purchase the set outright. Either way, I still own the set. The fact that I added on doubling the size of the set implies I have at least some rights to the artwork.

As I said previously, if Stocky and J5 wish to proceed with a GB, so be it. I am not trying to stop the group buy. I am simply stating my preference that the Iron Bank tournament set not be offered in a group buy.

The Iron Bank will have its due :

 

[RowdyRawhide]

Well you guys can do as you please. I'm not even considering any of these until there is confirmed permission from GRRM. Without reading the letter I have to assume Stocky stated that the chips were for his sole purchase. I would be incredibly surprised if he said anything remotely implying these would be produced for more than one person. Due to this I feel like anything resembling something other than a sole person ordering/owning/etc. is unacceptable. The rest of the drama is icing on the cake for me.

IIRC the design thread on CT covered everything pretty clearly

 

[atomiktoaster]

IIRC the design thread on CT covered everything pretty clearly

The gods save us, you mean we need to go north of the Wall to find out the truth of it?

 

[k9dr]

But that's not what is happening here. Stocky isn't doing anything shady... he sold some chips. He made it known before, during and after the sale that he was going forward with these ceramic versions, he was never hiding anything.

It was known two years ago... no one had any issue.

He said it during the raffle that sent this outstanding set to Mark... no one had any issue. He posted it right in the raffle thread and not one single person who bought a ticket (or otherwise) batted an eye.

I'm not understanding why he is being painted in a bad light for moving forward with something he has always said would be done, something no one had a single negative word to say about until today. I also have no idea why some people are being ostracized for pointing that out.

There are a whole lot of opinions in this thread but those are the (non-alternate) facts of the case.

Personally I was never buying these regardless of any of this and hope they don't end up getting made but that is a friendly bias that I feel doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

I hope I in no way painted Stocky in a bad light - that was never my intention. If I did, I apologize.

 

[jbutler]

But that's not what is happening here. Stocky isn't doing anything shady... he sold some chips. He made it known before, during and after the sale that he was going forward with these ceramic versions, he was never hiding anything.

It was known two years ago... no one had any issue.

He said it during the raffle that sent this outstanding set to Mark... no one had any issue. He posted it right in the raffle thread and not one single person who bought a ticket (or otherwise) batted an eye.

I'm not understanding why he is being painted in a bad light for moving forward with something he has always said would be done, something no one had a single negative word to say about until today. I also have no idea why some people are being ostracized for pointing that out.

There are a whole lot of opinions in this thread but those are the (non-alternate) facts of the case.

Personally I was never buying these regardless of any of this and hope they don't end up getting made but that is a friendly bias that I feel doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

These are all reasonable arguments imo. I only saw one post with a negative thing to say about stocky's involvement and I certainly don't think he's to "blame" for anything at all. I agree entirely that he made it known on multiple occasions that he would be opening up the design for ceramics. I don't think anyone in this thread should be painted in a bad light regardless of the several hot takes the subject has generated. I think it was simply a problem of communication. It didn't occur to some people that the current owner of the chips might have a problem with the GB. I can see how that could happen. But he does and he has voiced it and it seems very reasonable to me.

My personal recollection of the ceramic GB plans was that the ceramics were going to be only the cash chips. Apparently my recollection isn't accurate because it seems it was mentioned at least once that the tourney chips would also be made available on ceramics. I only mention my memory to say that perhaps that was Mark's belief as well and that when this thread was posted, he had his first occasion to voice any opposition to the project.

I share your friendly bias, but I think we have both legs to stand on. I don't know Mark well. I've met him maybe twice and we're not frequent communicators via PM/email/etc. But if any member of this forum voiced opposition to someone else making chips using the artwork from custom chips they owned, I'd feel the same friendly bias regardless of our personal interactions simply by virtue of us both being members of this community.

Sure, Mark won these chips in a raffle, but for those who think it matters that he didn't pay FMV for the chips, look at the huge add-on he purchased from CPC that he wouldn't have purchased had he not won the raffle and been the new owner.

 

[Stylin]

I guess that is part of what bothers me - how did the group buy get this far with no contact at all with the current owner of the set. Regardless of artwork rights or anything else, it is simply the right thing to do.

I get the fact that you want to protect whats yours. Really I do. The fact that you keep seeming to ignore is that this was all very public. It was well known that the intentions were to produce a group buy for ceramic versions of what you ended up getting. For me, the biggest thing here is it was posted in the sale thread that the group buy would still happen even after the sale of the chips. Not only that, but it was the third post in the thread and was posted before you bought a ticket. It was all disclosed before hand, so if you didn't agree with it then you shouldn't have bought a ticket. Unfortunately, it's a little late to change your mind.

 

[k9dr]

I get the fact that you want to protect whats yours. Really I do. The fact that you keep seeming to ignore is that this was all very public. It was well known that the intentions were to produce a group buy for ceramic versions of what you ended up getting. For me, the biggest thing here is it was posted in the sale thread that the group buy would still happen even after the sale of the chips. Not only that, but it was the third post in the thread and was posted before you bought a ticket. It was all disclosed before hand, so if you didn't agree with it then you shouldn't have bought a ticket. Unfortunately, it's a little late to change your mind.

I am not changing my mind, I would PREFER that the GB does not go forward. If Mental Nomad, Stocky, and J5 wish to proceed with a GB, that is their choice and I will do nothing to oppose it beyond stating my PREFERENCE.

 

[jbutler]

I get the fact that you want to protect whats yours. Really I do. The fact that you keep seeming to ignore is that this was all very public. It was well known that the intentions were to produce a group buy for ceramic versions of what you ended up getting. For me, the biggest thing here is it was posted in the sale thread that the group buy would still happen even after the sale of the chips. Not only that, but it was the third post in the thread and was posted before you bought a ticket. It was all disclosed before hand, so if you didn't agree with it then you shouldn't have bought a ticket. Unfortunately, it's a little late to change your mind.

I am not changing my mind, I would PREFER that the GB does not go forward. If Mental Nomad, Stocky, and J5 wish to proceed with a GB, that is their choice and I will do nothing to oppose it beyond stating my PREFERENCE.

Both very compelling arguments. Mark used capslock, but Styles used bold and underlining, so...tough to say.

 

[ssanel54]

As I said previously, if Stocky and J5 wish to proceed with a GB, so be it. I am not trying to stop the group buy. I am simply stating my preference that the Iron Bank tournament set not be offered in a group buy.

Sure, Mark won these chips in a raffle, but for those who think it matters that he didn't pay FMV for the chips, look at the huge add-on he purchased from CPC that he wouldn't have purchased had he not won the raffle and been the new owner.

I think this situation is complex because Stocky was very generous with the use of his original work, and may have granted permission to several others to use as they see fit.

FWIW, Im also hoping Mark does a CPC cash set of these regardless of whether a ceramic set is ever made.