Psypher1000
Straight Flush
Unless you have a replacement BCC set in the wings and ready to go, you should cease this line of thinking immediately.
Winter is Coming (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Mental Nomad
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Good point. What did stocky say about the rights in the Iron Bank listing?
I just reread the thread and could not find any specific mention of the rights. After the raffle, I contacted J5 and David Spragg and ordered more chips. That seems to me to imply that I must have had rights to the artwork.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Unfortunately nothing explicitly. But he did post that he was still planning on offering the ceramic group buy, which would lead people to believe that the ownership rights were not included. Since it wasn't stated as being included, one can't assume it is.
Once again, all of those plans took place before the raffle (sale) of the chips.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
He posted in the raffle sale thread that he was still going to do the ceramic group buy. Read the thread again, it is on the first page, 3rd post.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
He just died unfortunately
As I said, I would hate it. But if it's something the creator of the set planned on doing (and said as much doing the raffle) I don't see how it will be nixed unless his sale included giving up his own rights to the artwork. For the record I have no dog in the fight, wasn't planning on buying them.
I'm not a big fan of knock offs but the masses love them (see boardwalks, "let's see how close we can get to a top hat and cane looking mold while calling it something else" and WSOP replica chips and labels among other examples). I feel it would be terrible if HOF sets being remade as ceramics became a regular thing but this seems like an exception, not the rule.
He also said he planned on using GOCC not Sun-Fly. I think if these chips are produced in China, they will start showing up everywhere.
Ronoh, I have to disagree. It is wrong to duplicate someone's custom chips against their wishes. In my opinion, there's no difference whether you bought the set or created the set. The current owner has expressed that he is not giving permission. That should be the last word. If the knock-offs had been made prior to the sale, then what was done would have been done. Thats not the case.
Frankly I hope you're right. But nothing was posted in the sale thread about artwork rights and stocky said he was still going forward with ceramics.
If there was no comment in the sale thread about the ceramics versions I would lean further in to your corner but the fact that he said he would be moving forward with them pretty much confirms he did not agree to giving up his rights to the artwork.
Is that English?
Mark, I understand you have some passion surrounding this issue, but that's a pretty far-fetched and unrealistic leap.
Well, it's not clear exactly what actually transferred (besides the physical chips and your right to have more of them made), or none of the current conversation would even be taking place.
I totally agree that a private conversation between you, John, and Paul is mandatory. Until that happens, anything else that appears in this thread is simply guesswork and opinion, not fact.
I think there's a lot of things going on here:
1) Did Stocky give up rights to the artwork when he sold them to K9dr? We know he at least transferred some of the rights due to the fact K9dr could order more chips. We think he wanted to keep some rights on order to do a ceramic group buy. This is hard to argue as he is no longer in charge of the group buy and things have changed in regards to the group buy (I think at least)
2) GRRM only gave permission for Stocky to create a set not made for mass production or sold for a profit (I would call a group buy mass production but if I'm wrong let me know). I think this goes against those wishes and do not think it should be followed through with (I forgot about this when saying I was in for a sample/small set) without permission from GRRM.
3) Without a conversation between K9dr, Stocky, J5, and possibly GRRM I think this group buy should be put on hold in it's entirety because we should not in good conscience be able to move forward.
1) Did Stocky give up rights to the artwork when he sold them to K9dr? We know he at least transferred some of the rights due to the fact K9dr could order more chips. We think he wanted to keep some rights on order to do a ceramic group buy. This is hard to argue as he is no longer in charge of the group buy and things have changed in regards to the group buy (I think at least)
2) GRRM only gave permission for Stocky to create a set not made for mass production or sold for a profit (I would call a group buy mass production but if I'm wrong let me know). I think this goes against those wishes and do not think it should be followed through with (I forgot about this when saying I was in for a sample/small set) without permission from GRRM.
3) Without a conversation between K9dr, Stocky, J5, and possibly GRRM I think this group buy should be put on hold in it's entirety because we should not in good conscience be able to move forward.
Well said. BGinGA always says wise shit.
Stocky should be able to clarify intentions, and John controls the art. Should be easy to come to conclusion.
I did not mean to imply that Stocky transferred exclusive rights to the artwork to me. I always assumed he might wish to reproduce a set for his personal use. My preference (not legal) is that the Iron Bank tournament set not be offered as a group buy. I would also argue that a group buy = mass production, which I believe violates the permission GRRM granted in the first place.
OP
OP
Mental Nomad
Full House
Just to be clear and so that nobody thinks I've gone rogue, Stocky and J5 are both involved with this Group Buy. Stocky is out of the scene here on PCF and hands-off in managing this Group Buy, but I've been talking to him, this year, explicitly about this Group Buy and the details, including going to Sun-Fly as manufacturer. The pictures in the OP came directly from J5, who was aware that I would be posting them in this thread.
All that having been said, I'm going to go quiet on this thread for a while I work to address all parties' concerns.
I've responded privately to k9dr's concerned PM to me.
I've also shared those messages with Stocky via email.
All that having been said, I'm going to go quiet on this thread for a while I work to address all parties' concerns.
I've responded privately to k9dr's concerned PM to me.
I've also shared those messages with Stocky via email.
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Stylin
Pair
John is making revisions to the art for this group buy. I think his intentions are clear.
The only thing listed in the raffle is that the winner gets the chips, cards, and buttons. It doesn't say they own the art rights too. I don't even believe the price paid for the total raffle was enough to buy the chips and pay for the art at cost to begin with. I don't understand why you feel this would transfer. I've had art commissioned. There was a final transfer of rights that both parties signed. Did you sign a transfer of rights?
Bottom line, the third post in the raffle made it clear that the ceramic group buy would still happen. This is prior to you even asking for a ticket. You knew what you were getting into.
The only thing listed in the raffle is that the winner gets the chips, cards, and buttons. It doesn't say they own the art rights too. I don't even believe the price paid for the total raffle was enough to buy the chips and pay for the art at cost to begin with. I don't understand why you feel this would transfer. I've had art commissioned. There was a final transfer of rights that both parties signed. Did you sign a transfer of rights?
Bottom line, the third post in the raffle made it clear that the ceramic group buy would still happen. This is prior to you even asking for a ticket. You knew what you were getting into.
Now that I know what this means...
The biggest problem with this argument is... not only were ceramics going to be offered but at one time he was also going to allow members who wanted the actual CPC chips to order them. I just went through and read both of those threads and the number of people who had this issue is exactly zero.pokerdweebz said:
I'm just stating my opinion. Obviously I don't know what is inside the author's head and the only way to find out would be to ask him. Martin's opinion is the only one that matters on that issue.
detroitdad
Royal Flush
Fair enough, but maybe people didn't know/forgot that GRRM said this to Stocky. I for one know I forgot and wouldn't feel right ordering them now. Also whether or not people have issue with it doesn't make it wrong or right.
OP
OP
Mental Nomad
Full House
Sorry, but this group buy excludes sales to anyone outside the community - as stated in the OP.
OP
OP
Mental Nomad
Full House
Who is this J9 character
Thanks- edited to J5. Brain fart.
(I sometimes suffer bouts of onomastic aphasia.)
atomiktoaster
Full House
Who has read the GRRM letter to Stocky, btw? I was always curious as to the exact wording, mostly because it's a neat part of the backstory to the set. I'm not sure whether a closed group buy is within the scope of what it allowed or not, without having read it.
I just hope nobody ends up feeling burned at the end of this, and that CPC cash chips get made eventually to complete my sample set.
I just hope nobody ends up feeling burned at the end of this, and that CPC cash chips get made eventually to complete my sample set.
Ben
Full House
I'm sure when GRRM sues for breach of his IP rights, the judge will find this compelling. "Gee Mr. Martin, I feel for ya but when a poker chip nerd first brought up the possibility of a group buy, none of the other poker chip nerds objected immediately in your defense, so I'm afraid you're out of luck. Sorry bro."
In regards to the thinking that went into it at the time, I don't think anyone really thought about/realized the potential scope of what Stocky intended to offer. 5 people ordering in a "group buy" may or may not constitute "mass production" in the spirit of Martin's wishes and/or in a legal sense. 100 people ordering definitely does (IMO.)
Absent the intellectual property issue with Martin's granted permission, I would say that @stocky's expressed intentions as original owner/commissioner trump @k9dr's rights to veto as buyer/"successor commissioner" (although I definitely understand his reluctance - I wouldn't want to see it happen if I were him either.) But GRRM trumps both. :coffee:
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