Who has the rights to your photos submitted to Chipguide? Please READ (1 Viewer)

leo822

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After Charles Kaplan of the Chipguide came out and attacked another long time club member for being unethical because he used images from Chipguide, I wrote a response that brings up a lot of issues I have with him and Chipguide. If you care about the rights of your intellectual property and whether you forfeit them by donating to Chipguide then please give this a read and chime in. It's time the old guard sees that the new crop of collectors are not going to take their unwarranted bullying anymore...especially when they are blatantly guilty of stealing images themselves. I hope we can show them by input that a lot of us just want to chip and have fun without them haranguing us about photos they don't really own anyway.

Thanks for your time!

E
 
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CG is such a useful resource in the chipping hobby, why can’t it be just that and appreciate that such a resource can only occur due to the input of many people?!

Sounds like Charles’ pestering regarding images needs to be met with a big

and if CG gets taken down in a huffy fit, someone will have backups and recreate it here on PCF :sneaky:
 
I can’t deal with that forum. Too bad, they’re probably up to their knees in Foxwoods chips over there.
Anyway, yeah, I’ve seen that guy bitching before (I AM THE CHIPGUIDE) and it’s annoying, but is it of any consequence? Like, is he causing any real trouble, or would it be just as easy to ignore his demands?
 
The issue is that he is pretty much saying he has ownership rights to any photo submitted to Chipguide. If you own a one of a kind chip and submit the photo to Chipguide....years down the line if you want to print a book or make a NFT using that photo...you could be in for a fight because he is setting up precedent that Chipguide does indeed own the rights to the original unedited photo because every time they assert that, it is never challenged. Kind of like that encroaching fence you let your friendly neighbor build all those years ago that is now pretty much his land.
 
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The issue is that he is pretty much saying he has ownership rights to any photo submitted to Chipguide. If you own a one of a kind chip and submit the photo to Chipguide....years down the line if you want to print a book or make a NFT using that photo...you could be in for a fight because he is setting up precedent that Chipguide does indeed own the rights to the original unedited photo because every time they assert that it is never challenged. Kind of like that encroaching fence you let your friendly neighbor build all those years ago that is now pretty much his land.
My understand is that the artist retains the copyright for any photo they take, unless they explicitly sell it or give it up. The submission page doesn't say anything to this nature, so my understanding is that you've given them the rights to use your photo, as in publication rights ("Upon submission, permission is granted to the Museum of Gaming History to use the item on the ChipGuide and for other purposes"), but you don't give up your rights, so they should not be able to restrict you from using the image yourself for any reason, or from licensing it to other people.

http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_submission2.php

Perhaps @Eloe2000 or someone more knowledgeable than me could weigh in.
 
His attack on Rich Burgel - "I believe strongly in the CCA and the Code of Ethics as a standard for all CCA members. There are no exceptions in the Code of Ethics for CCA officials, every member is held to the same standard. It is difficult for me to believe that a Code of Ethics violator is even allowed to run for an elected office in the CCA. Maybe that needs to be changed. The question that you have to ask yourself is:

Can you vote for someone who has violated the CCA's Code of Ethics?"

His "ethics" when he wants to use photos not on Chipguide.
man12.jpg

osca.jpg

feel.jpg


"Gee Lady...when you said you "You Were Not Interested" I thought that meant "You WANT to be Interested!"
 
If I ran a website that relied on other people submitting pictures of a items that are the property of another company, I don't think I'd be too eager to get into the weeds on arguing about the ownership of said images.

Also, why piss off the people who account for 99.9% of your sites traffic?
 
Charles Kaplan explaining why they went after someone using THEIR OWN SUBMITTED IMAGES in an eBay ad of their OWN chips -

But politics as they are, this offender got multiple warnings and still was using ChipGuide images in his eBay auctions.

You may not think that is a big deal, and I was not aware as well until it was explained to me by the CCA's attorney at the time, Eric Rosenblum. ChipGuide images are copyrighted to preserve ownership of the images. Thousands of collectors have entrusted their images with us and the ChipGuide has the responsibility to safeguard and protect them. If the ChipGuide is aware of any Copyright Infringements and does not act to protect the Copyright, then the Copyright may no longer be valid and anyone can freely use ChipGuide images as they please. Someone could make their own website or publish a book with ChipGuide images and we couldn't stop them.


Can someone explain to me how you can Copyright an unaltered imaged submitted by the owner of said image?
 
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A number of these folks really are a joyless bunch. A few years ago several of us were at the June convention, scouring the tables for hours and hours and buying chips galore. Three PCFers decided to take a break and sit at a table in the back of the hall, and show each other their hauls. As I understand it, some grouchy old fotzer came over and accused them of selling/dealing in chips without a convention-sanctioned booth, and threatened to boot them from the convention. I wasn’t one of them (I was chewing Mike Spinetti’s ear off at the time), but @AfterTheFact told me it was quite insane.
 
A number of these folks really are a joyless bunch. A few years ago several of us were at the June convention, scouring the tables for hours and hours and buying chips galore. Three PCFers decided to take a break and sit at a table in the back of the hall, and show each other their hauls. As I understand it, some grouchy old fotzer came over and accused them of selling/dealing in chips without a convention-sanctioned booth, and threatened to boot them from the convention. I wasn’t one of them (I was chewing Mike Spinetti’s ear off at the time), but @AfterTheFact told me it was quite insane.
That was Me, David and James at the table. James wrote a scathing tapestry of rebuttal on the Chipboard that to this very day is still hanging in space over Lake Michigan.

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Grumpy Old Men are going to Grumpy-Old-Men. You take the good with the bad over there. There are many greedy, or cheap, or bad-at-technology, or curmudgeonly chippers over there. But there are an awful lot of nice ones too, who are pleasant to work with and ascribe fair prices in sales or trades. Navigating the forum, and discovering who is worth dealing with or not, is a slog at times, but generally worth it.
 
Grumpy Old Men are going to Grumpy-Old-Men. You take the good with the bad over there. There are many greedy, or cheap, or bad-at-technology, or curmudgeonly chippers over there. But there are an awful lot of nice ones too, who are pleasant to work with and ascribe fair prices in sales or trades. Navigating the forum, and discovering who is worth dealing with or not, is a slog at times, but generally worth it.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Among others, Curt Squires and Mike Spinetti were absolute gems.
 
And this seems like an opportune time for me to repost my apocryphal “Scene from the Chip Convention”:

Scene: Annual CGGTCCCGTC chip convention, at an “off-strip” casino.

Me: I’m interested in this (non-mint, dirty) New China Club $5. Can you do anything on price?

Old Fotzer: what price is it marked?

Me: $60.

OF: Let me see what the Chip Rack price is...

Me: *winces*

OF (After paging thru ChipRack for five minutes): It says here that in mint condition, this is a [meaningless code] rarity chip, worth $45-50.

Me: This chip is not mint.

OF: It almost stands on edge.

Me:

OF: But I’m offering convention pricing, discounting 20% off market price, so $40.

Me: *facepalm* You’re discounting off the top of the range listed in a book printed a year or so ago that isn’t based on any observable, quantifiable metrics but is basically subjective make-believe pricing that is the opinion of the guide’s author?

OF:

Me:

OF: Yes. This guide cost me $100.

Me:

OF: Make me an offer.

Me: Do you have more than one?

OF: No—that’s an incredibly rare chip, only a few dozen exist.

Me [who owns racks of them]: According to whom?

OF and me, in unison: The Chip Rack guide.

Me: *blinks*

Me: All due respect, and I don’t want to insult you, but I can offer you a price that is based on what this chip actually sells for in the real market, like eBay or at Spinettis. Examples in better condition have sold for $5-12 recently. I’m not sure I can offer more than that, given those are actual market prices. I can offer $10.

OF: No.

Me: What is your best price?

OF: $38.

Me:

OF: But you don’t have to pay shipping.

Me: :banghead:

Me: Have a good convention....

[Next booth, rinse and repeat.]

Later in the day...

OF [scowling and pointing at me to his wife; muttering]: That guy lowballs. Offered me $10 for this NCC $5.

OF’s Wife: But you have dozens of them, and you paid $25 for the whole lot! The house is FULL of boxes of chips! We don’t even have room for the grandkids!

OF: Hey buddy...I could do $35.

[/Scene]
 
I literally have ZERO issue with anyone over there except Kaplan who is constantly up someone's ass about using a CG photo...which more than likely was stolen to begin with.
Your list is shorter than mine. I have a growing list of people I won't deal with because they communicate poorly or are simply greedy in any transaction.

And although morbid, my list has also shrunk by a couple people. One is really too old to post or transact any business anymore, and another died.
 
I've had a slightly different take than some here.

A decade ago, I carefully scanned and submitted chips that I have that weren't in CG and they never got included. That was one part of why I decided I wasn't going to help. They ask for submissions, I go out of my way to upload good quality scans that fit their desired prescription, upload as they ask but to then see them not used was enough to stop bothering.

I interact via eBay auctions some club members who are absolutely stand-up folks, but after a handful of posts I saw on TCB I decided that they were a group I wasn't sure I wanted to be associated with. I feel a little bad that I'm not a CCA member, but despite what the the official word from the club says, TCB is the public face of the CCA. Ignoring the 1998 BBS nature of TCB, I saw enough there I was done with the club, even from an outsider but chip enthusiast.


Sounds like some of the "small town politics" that are driving this might also be permeating the club.
 
That was Me, David and James at the table. James wrote a scathing tapestry of rebuttal on the Chipboard that to this very day is still hanging in space over Lake Michigan.

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I wasn't going to go there but I knew those who were accused.

So as far as using your own images yeah I absolutely agree.

Where I play Devils Advocate here is that I bought an AC Trump chip from a long time CCAmember off of eBay, both pictures were identical and he claimed that both sides were shown claims to ru. The Colorado Branch of CCA or something. I would share his name but some of you may know him and not trying to go there again... the chip was garbage, so warped the inlay was popping out, huge flea bites, I still have the chip. Dude even tried to tell me "if it is warped it's worth more because that is rare" blah blah send it back for a refund. But why should I pay to send somebody that was 100% misleading. Brie even went to Mr. Spragg about it, nothing came of it. I kept the. Hip because it's not about $10... it's about that "code of ethics" admitted to using generic scans because and again I quote "I don't have time to take pictures of every chip" according to this guy it is fairly regular practice which was knowledge to me. Most of the time when people say both sides shown that is the chip you Re buying. Anyways I was disgusted with the situation.

But again if there is no "policing of images" then what stops sellers from using those pictures on eBay sales when they are selling inferior chips compared to the images shown. It is a slippery slope E, I read your post earlier and absolutely loved it... but again I do think the "Not allowed to use for auctions" rule is very good. If people are guilty of breaking that rule and caught then I'm not against this guy. I speed... if I get caught I pay the fine, we don't make the rules but someone has to have the awful job of trying to implement them.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but again with what happened with me over $10 stinking bucks... I hate to see that stuff happen to people. These guys are veterans, they know better than cutting corners, it's awful ethics. But if people can abuse the rules they will.

It's a pretty thankless job this guy is trying to perform. And I am guessing he is not paid, but donates that time to the hobby. I don't like attacks, Public executions, we all know some of those guys don't have the greatest conversational skills. Repeat offenders are probably going to get under their skin

BTW I have another one they don't have on there
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The Corona Club non denom HS to the left are not on the chipguide... but I only have 99, maybe someone can find #100,submit it and then sell it to me! Lol
 
Yes it was the three of us sitting at the concessions table (I think Scott and Lee were there too) and we were exchanging coupons we didn't want with one another. A guy on a scooter came roaring up to us and demanded that we leave for "selling chips" We laughed and I showed him the coupons but he didn't want to take no for an answer. It was ugly and we had to go over his head to get things alright to stay. RIP Sheldon.

As far as what happened to you that is apples and oranges. That was someone misrepresenting a chip with a photo that is not of the chip. That is FRAUD hands down and you should have taken it to the end for reimbursement. What I am talking about is Mr Kaplans belief that as soon as you donate an image they have filed a new copyright on that photo. Like I don't even know where to start but the idea is absurd. They believe that the original and completely unaltered image is theirs now too. What? Intellectual property might not strike a chord with you now....but when it's worth big money some day and you realize you relinquished your rights to your own photo back in 2018 it's gonna hurt. But heck what do I know.
 
And I agree with you that the CG photos should never be used for an auction...UNLESS YOU ARE THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF THE CHIP USING YOUR OWN PHOTO THAT YOU SUBMITTED TO CG OF SAID CHIP! Why the heck would I not be able to use my own photo of my own chip? Because I submitted it to CG and they must approve it? Bullshit.
 

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