What's missing here? (1 Viewer)

[WedgeRock]

That's a lot of leg work, @HobokenNJ. Thanks the the effort, as it sheds some light on the legality of the situation.

Only the OP and those that played there know for sure where this game fits on the continuum, but based on what's been described by the OP, this game might fall into the realm of illegal based in frequency. That would legitimize seizure. Although I would argue that the home is "commonly used" as a residence and only occasionally used as for poker. The number of hours a month it was used for each activity would support the argument, IMO.

Did you run across any analysis of what "commonly used" means or what factors are considered?

 

[FordPickup92]

I am curious what their definition of "common" is in reference to commonly used

 

[HobokenNJ]

Did you run across any analysis of what "commonly used" means or what factors are considered?

I am curious what their definition of "common" is in reference to commonly used

I did not run into anything & searching for references to the code section here didn't yield a result.

For what it's worth, like @WedgeRock, I would tend to construe the phrase to permit relatively frequent play (monthly / weekly / etc.), as I suspect that's consistent with the legislative intent. But I don't have anything to support my hunch.

 

[arch3r]

Been reading this with great interest since I live in VA, attend monthly home games and occasionally host a game at my house.

It was always my understanding, and my buddy used to be a cop who hosts, that home games w/ no rake or other host compensation are permitted and legal in VA. So I find the OP's initial post very scary. But I have to believe the cops thought something else major was going on there to bring such a force to bear on a simple home game. Hopefully it gets worked out and the OP is made whole, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[daschuck77]

I don't want to talk about the deep specifics of what happened with us too much. I am very worried about and haven't spoke to OP in a few days. I just want my friends to be restored. But again as I mentioned earlier, yes, they had warrants, signed by a Virginia Beach magistrate. None of them for drugs, all for various aspects of 'illegal gambling'.

All of us players were questioned and ticketed for municipal code violation Sec. 14-2. - Illegal gambling generally.

Also, my brother-in-law (not at the time) was dealing the George's game. So many inaccuracies from both the TV reporting and lawyers involved. They both kept referring it to Texas Hold'em when they were actually playing 5/10 PLO with a bunch of other old moneybags...they had played some form of cards together for decades. Huge 2K min buy-in, held in a house that was listed as 'office space', game ran 4-5 nights a week, WAS RAKED, and had Virginia Beach police actually visit the house while they were playing and weren't told to stop. It was just a whole big spectacle because it involved a higher profile businessman in our area who also had issues in the past running a multi-million sportsbook across state lines.

https://www.gloucestercounty-va.com/2013/07/capt-georges-owner-appears-in-court.html

 

[HobokenNJ]

A couple more items:

Here's some commentary from a book from 1976 from The National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice, The Development of the Law of Gambling: 1776-1976.

Another link: "Gambling to raise charitable funds may be permissible at a private residence, provided it is not repeated habitually or regularly and provided it’s not conducted by an “operator.” "

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't want to talk about the deep specifics of what happened with us too much. I am very worried about and haven't spoke to OP in a few days. I just want my friends to be restored. But again as I mentioned earlier, yes, they had warrants, signed by a Virginia Beach magistrate. None of them for drugs, all for various aspects of 'illegal gambling'.

All of us players were questioned and ticketed for municipal code violation Sec. 14-2. - Illegal gambling generally.

Also, my brother-in-law (not at the time) was dealing the George's game. So many inaccuracies from both the TV reporting and lawyers involved. They both kept referring it to Texas Hold'em when they were actually playing 5/10 PLO with a bunch of other old moneybags...they had played some form of cards together for decades. Huge 2K min buy-in, held in a house that was listed as 'office space', game ran 4-5 nights a week, WAS RAKED, and had Virginia Beach police actually visit the house while they were playing and weren't told to stop. It was just a whole big spectacle because it involved a higher profile businessman in our area who also had issues in the past running a multi-million sportsbook across state lines.

https://www.gloucestercounty-va.com/2013/07/capt-georges-owner-appears-in-court.html

I greatly respect your privacy in the matter. The OP opened the can of worms with his tragic post, and the thread began to grow speculative legs and run with half-baked ideas, because that's what the internet does when complete information is left lacking.

We appreciate any more details as they come available, but your needs come first.

By the way, what was the fine/penalty for receiving the ticket?

 

[daschuck77]

I greatly respect your privacy in the matter. The OP opened the can of worms with his tragic post, and the thread began to grow speculative legs and run with half-baked ideas, because that's what the internet does when complete information is left lacking.

We appreciate any more details as they come available, but your needs come first.

By the way, what was the fine/penalty for receiving the ticket?

No jail, Max $500 fine but I have a lawyer and my own requirements to attempt to dismiss charges.

 

[daschuck77]

https://library.municode.com/va/virginia_beach/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=CO_CH14GA

 

[HobokenNJ]

https://library.municode.com/va/virginia_beach/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=CO_CH14GA

I like the exception for bird, dog, horse, etc. races. (The code appears to mirror the state code mentioned earlier.)

Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prevent any contest of speed or skill between men, animals, fowl or vehicles, where participants may receive prizes or different percentages of a purse, stake or premium dependent upon whether they win or lose, or dependent upon their position or score at the end of such contest.

 

[Poker Zombie]

All money, gambling devices, office equipment and other personal property used in connection with an illegal gambling enterprise or activity, and all money, stakes and things of value received or proposed to be received by a winner in any illegal gambling transaction, which are lawfully seized by any law-enforcement officer or which shall lawfully come into such officer's custody, shall be forfeited to the city by order of the court in which a conviction under this chapter is obtained. Such court shall order all money so forfeited to be paid over to the city and, by order, shall make such disposition of other property so forfeited as the court deems proper, including the award of such property to any city or state agency or charitable organization for lawful purposes; or, in case of the sale thereof, the proceeds therefrom to be paid over to the city. Such forfeiture shall not extinguish the rights of any person, without knowledge of the illegal use of such property, who is the lawful owner or who has a lien on the same which has been perfected as provided by law.

If this continues to go poorly for @brains613 I'll be watching government auction websites in an effort to recover the chips for the rightful owner.

I have little doubt that the kindness of PCF will help me finance the bidding if necessary. The tough part will be finding them (provided they aren't thrown out/destroyed).

 

[daschuck77]

If you saw the whole list of chips that were seized you would cry...like we did. Pending the result I do believe my PNY set at a minimum is in serious jeopardy because the VBPD is in a revenue generating frenzy.

 

[pltrgyst]

Fwiw, I had a weekly home game in northern VA for almost 30 years. The game included various LEOs throughout -- ankle holsters served as clues for the unitiated -- as well as a national officer of the FoP, and various Congressional staffers; even a House member now and then.

I had it listed openly on the Web (still there, at www.xhost.org), with the header "Legal home game in conformance with the Code of the State of Virginia, in my home in Old Town Alexandria. 100 yards from Metro!" That page included the stakes -- tourney buy-ins, .25/.50 to 1/2 hold'em, up to 3/6 limit.

We did pick up a couple of players over the years through a local meet-up forum, without complications..

Never had the slightest problem, but I made it as squeaky-clean as it could be. I started out preparing food (chili, pasta, etc.) for $5 a person, but after the first six months I even stopped doing that, lest it be interpreted as a rake or some form of profit, however remote. Thereafter, we all ordered take-out food delivered to the house by a local Italian restaurant..

From everything I've read over the years, if you're going to have a problem in VA, it will be down in the SE corner.

Hard luck, Perry -- hope it all works out...

 

[sheikh617]

If you saw the whole list of chips that were seized you would cry...like we did. Pending the result I do believe my PNY set at a minimum is in serious jeopardy because the VBPD is in a revenue generating frenzy.

That's such bullshit. It sucks that people can't have a fun and safe hobby in their own home anymore. Reading stuff like this makes me sick to my stomach and want to sell all my chips and stop playing poker because I really don't even enjoy casino cash games.

 

[Burke]

This is the auctionhouse that VB uses:

https://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionlist.cgi?vuid=23546

 

[Josh Kifer]

Fwiw, I had a weekly home game in northern VA for almost 30 years. The game included various LEOs throughout -- ankle holsters served as clues for the unitiated -- as well as a national officer of the FoP, and various Congressional staffers; even a House member now and then.

I had it listed openly on the Web (still there, at www.xhost.org), with the header "Legal home game in conformance with the Code of the State of Virginia, in my home in Old Town Alexandria. 100 yards from Metro!" That page included the stakes -- tourney buy-ins, .25/.50 to 1/2 hold'em, up to 3/6 limit.

We did pick up a couple of players over the years through a local meet-up forum, without complications..

Never had the slightest problem, but I made it as squeaky-clean as it could be. I started out preparing food (chili, pasta, etc.) for $5 a person, but after the first six months I even stopped doing that, lest it be interpreted as a rake or some form of profit, however remote. Thereafter, we all ordered take-out food delivered to the house by a local Italian restaurant..

From everything I've read over the years, if you're going to have a problem in VA, it will be down in the SE corner.

Hard luck, Perry -- hope it all works out...

That is a nifty website and way to do it. I've been lucky I never needed to really manage my players, but as a player, I'd love a place that did that so I knew what was going on.

 

[Lil Tuna]

No jail, Max $500 fine but I have a lawyer and my own requirements to attempt to dismiss charges.

Very sorry to hear that this went down @daschuck77, thanks much for the additional information you’ve provided.
As @Poker Zombie referenced to above, stories on line have a tendency to go all over the place when the information is limited.
I will also keep an eye on the website that @Burke provided and try to lend a hand in helping you find and possibly get back the chips that you and Perry had confiscated.
Best of luck and wishes with this situation, I hope everything works out ok for you guys.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Any update on the case?

 

[Lil Tuna]

Any update on the case?

Have not heard anything.

 

[daschuck77]

Preliminary hearings moved to January 2020. Those that have the misdemeanor charges for playing still have a date in December. I would assume those with representation are going to try and get a continuance to a date after the January 2020 hearings.

 

[daschuck77]

Interesting reading that describes how a lawyer feels about poker in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Apparently the nearby Portsmouth, VA 'Charity' Poker place was paid a visit by detectives. I use the term 'charity' loosely. They somehow make their nut in addition to donating to the charity.

Just recently the City of Portsmouth and Rush Street Gaming announced their partnership:
https://www.13newsnow.com/article/n...ming/291-f67b066b-b707-41fb-836b-6ac85c6e9806

Maybe the Portsmouth Commonwealth Attorney is going to once again, sour on the idea of Charity poker in the city to clear it out ahead of the new casino.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Interesting reading that describes how a lawyer feels about poker in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Apparently the nearby Portsmouth, VA 'Charity' Poker place was paid a visit by detectives. I use the term 'charity' loosely. They somehow make their nut in addition to donating to the charity.

Just recently the City of Portsmouth and Rush Street Gaming announced their partnership:
https://www.13newsnow.com/article/n...ming/291-f67b066b-b707-41fb-836b-6ac85c6e9806

Maybe the Portsmouth Commonwealth Attorney is going to once again, sour on the idea of Charity poker in the city to clear it out ahead of the new casino.

Wouldn’t be a surprise! Wonder how much grease are on that guys palms?

 

[links_slayer]

quoting rounders is such a baller move

 

[Lil Tuna]

Didn’t realize that had been done.... but cool.

 

[stevea]

S**ts getting crazy around here!! So annoying!!

 

[Lil Tuna]

S**ts getting crazy around here!! So annoying!!

Lots of corrupt politicians in Virginia. I should know, I live there.
Had trouble with the locals in my town a few years ago. Even had a picture of one of them doing something not so legit.
Still has a job in local government!
Nothing new or anything I saw in a movie..
And the beat goes on!!

 

[Poker Zombie]

I think @jbutler could have written a much better letter, but it gets the point across.

 

[daschuck77]

So all of us had our day yesterday in Virginia Beach General District court but just those charged with Class 3 Misdemenaor for Illegal Gambling.** OP has date in end of January.

First of all, I cannot believe how many people do not dress appropriately for court. Their livelihood, and lives could be at stake. Camouflage Hoodies, Halter tops, see though crap, etc. were all on display. My wife dressed me so luckily I avoided a potential debacle. I hate courtrooms, they are an unfamiliar and adversarial place.

First of all my lawyer and another's no-showed! Mine was stuck in traffic court downstairs. Myself and three others were able to get a continuance to February so a Commonwealth Attorney can assist the Detectives w/their case. I am hopeful that this is where the lawyer will pay off as the other defense attorneys can meet with prosecution ahead of the court date and hopefully work on a good result.

Three other people faced the judge and lead detective in the case.

One pled guilty and pled no contest. The other was Guilty in Absentia.

Both the other individuals were found guilty and ordered to pay $100 fine plus fees. Court fees were an additional $100.

It was frustrating to see the informants that sat in the game with a folder of all of our statements and hand them off to the detective and leave the court room smirking all the way. Essentially those statements were handled as an admission of guilt.

 

[sheikh617]

So all of us had our day yesterday in Virginia Beach General District court. First of all, I cannot believe how many people do not dress appropriately for court. Their livelihood, and lives could be at stake. Camouflage Hoodies, Halter tops, see though crap, etc. were all on display. My wife dressed me so luckily I avoided a potential debacle. I hate courtrooms, they are an unfamiliar and adversarial place.

First of all my lawyer and another's no-showed! Mine was stuck in traffic court downstairs. Myself and three others were able to get a continuance to February so a Commonwealth Attorney can assist the Detectives w/their case. I am hopeful that this is where the lawyer will pay off as the other defense attorneys can meet with prosecution ahead of the court date and hopefully work on a good result.

Three other people faced the judge and lead detective in the case.

One pled guilty and pled no contest. The other was Guilty in Absentia.

Both the other individuals were found guilty and ordered to pay $100 fine plus fees. Court fees were an additional $100.

It was frustrating to see the informants that sat in the game with a folder of all of our statements and hand them off to the detective and leave the court room smirking all the way. Essentially those statements were handled as an admission of guilt.

That's outrageous. I'd be so pissed.

 

[FordPickup92]

So all of us had our day yesterday in Virginia Beach General District court. First of all, I cannot believe how many people do not dress appropriately for court. Their livelihood, and lives could be at stake. Camouflage Hoodies, Halter tops, see though crap, etc. were all on display. My wife dressed me so luckily I avoided a potential debacle. I hate courtrooms, they are an unfamiliar and adversarial place.

First of all my lawyer and another's no-showed! Mine was stuck in traffic court downstairs. Myself and three others were able to get a continuance to February so a Commonwealth Attorney can assist the Detectives w/their case. I am hopeful that this is where the lawyer will pay off as the other defense attorneys can meet with prosecution ahead of the court date and hopefully work on a good result.

Three other people faced the judge and lead detective in the case.

One pled guilty and pled no contest. The other was Guilty in Absentia.

Both the other individuals were found guilty and ordered to pay $100 fine plus fees. Court fees were an additional $100.

It was frustrating to see the informants that sat in the game with a folder of all of our statements and hand them off to the detective and leave the court room smirking all the way. Essentially those statements were handled as an admission of guilt.

Was OP advised not to use to forum? Just curious... noticed he hasnt posted here or much anywhere else.. not criticizing in anyway just wondering if the legal defense recommend him not to have continuation here for a bit? (Dont see how this site could deem further evidence, but I guess it is possible)

Also, sorry to hear your lawyer missed the trial time. It's really sad that you all are still going through this... such a shame. Hope things level out soon