What the muck!?!? (1 Viewer)

DeusEx

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Good, I'm glad. I was reluctant to even post but I know there's a lot more knowledgeable people here than myself who may have had this come up.

My guys are all extreme casuals, so they always look to me for the rules and I don't always know them, and I haven't taken the time to read through them. We have mistakes a lot, people betting out of turn, flipped over cards. I have to look into what to do in these situations as well.
Betting out of turn is binding, unless the person(s) skipped decides to bet.

A card flipped over that comes out of the dealer's hand and then is turned over before control of the player is exerted is the fault of the dealer and MUST be replaced. The first card would often be used as the burn.
 

buffalojim

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Betting out of turn is binding, unless the person(s) skipped decides to bet.

A card flipped over that comes out of the dealer's hand and then is turned over before control of the player is exerted is the fault of the dealer and MUST be replaced. The first card would often be used as the burn.
Thanks, this is the way I've been doing it. Maybe I'll start a separate thread for these common mistakes so we don't muddy this one.
 

DeusEx

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Is the collusion part dumping pots to another player or something else?
mostly yes, but typically two people would jam with a 3rd person in a mix and then when 3rd person folds one of them will fold.
 
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upNdown

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I’ll add this, for the folks that think “I paid to see that hand” is obvious. It’s a pretty foreign concept to me. I think I’ve heard those words uttered once or twice. It’s not a concept that is common or relevant or whatever in any games I’ve played in. I don’t know if it’s a regional thing or just a different rooms, different rules thing, but it’s just not something I’ve practically ever seen, FWIW.
 

DeusEx

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I’ll add this, for the folks that think “I paid to see that hand” is obvious. It’s a pretty foreign concept to me. I think I’ve heard those words uttered once or twice. It’s not a concept that is common or relevant or whatever in any games I’ve played in. I don’t know if it’s a regional thing or just a different rooms, different rules thing, but it’s just not something I’ve practically ever seen, FWIW.
I believe the saying spawns from the verbiage in the rules where you can't ask to see a hand if you don't call, meaning they paid the fee to see the cards.
 

upNdown

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I believe the saying spawns from the verbiage in the rules where you can't ask to see a hand if you don't call, meaning they paid the fee to see the cards.
No I get that. I just mean that I haven’t seen it done in the games and rooms and casinos I’ve played it. Whether it’s not a rule that’s enforced around here or whether it’s just an uncommon request, I don’t know. But my point is simply, don’t be shocked that some people don’t play that way.
 

Marius L

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Yeah, definitely different. Thanks man!

I feel dumb, but what the hell is RRoP?

This is not something that has occurred before in our game. Dude was just embarrassed his bluff didn't work out and he got called down. I think as a "house rule" I'm just going to require that a called hand needs to be shown first, end of story. Make it black and white.
So no option for the person that gets called down to muck his cards? Seems very strict and not in a good way imo.

If called when bluffing, losing the pot should be punishment enough.
 

Schmendr1ck

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I’ll add this, for the folks that think “I paid to see that hand” is obvious. It’s a pretty foreign concept to me. I think I’ve heard those words uttered once or twice. It’s not a concept that is common or relevant or whatever in any games I’ve played in. I don’t know if it’s a regional thing or just a different rooms, different rules thing, but it’s just not something I’ve practically ever seen, FWIW.
I'm not sure that it's regional, but this is a rule that a lot of card rooms and home games do not agree on.

So it's not surprising that your experience is what it is.
 

BGinGA

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It does vary based on location and tradition/history.

In some places, calling means "I paid to see those cards". In others, calling means "I paid to have a chance of winning the pot".

Most -- but not all -- formal rules state the latter.

Personally, I have no issues with the tournament rule(s), nor do I see any significant issue with them also being applied to cash games.
 

MeridianFC

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FWIW growing up "paying to see the cards" was a very common concept. It's probably both an age and regional thing.
That said I've never seen it in a card room, not that my experience is that deep, and it's certainly never been common in home games I've played in, probably because the stakes I'm involved in are modest and the games are mostly friendly.

I get it as a good yet rare option to check for collusion/whipsawing. That said, as others have noted, if someone wantd to fold to me and give themselves 0% chance to win the pot I'm always going to take that.
 

Rakrul

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Had a situation arise on Friday during a tournament I was hosting. Had to make a call on the spot but would like to know what is generally accepted as proper, or right. Small stakes, $40 buy-in, nothing major.

For the sake of making this simple the hand was heads up. Player A is the small blind, Player B the big blind. Nobody is all in, in this situation.

River:
Player A checks
Player B bets
Player A calls
Player B then proceeds to muck their cards, most likely because he was hoping for a fold and didn't want to expose the bluff.

-- Does the Player A (caller) have the right to see Player B's (agressors) hand?

-- If Player A doesn't request to see the agressors hand, can anybody else at the table request this?

I have not read the official rules and made a call on the spot that the agressor was allowed to muck his hand. I was challenged by my cousin, who had folded earlier, said Player A is paying for the right to see Player B's hand, which I don't disagree with either. But, is it a right?

I understand that "house rules" is a thing and also that tournaments and cash games might have different nuances to this, but I'm curious what some people think.

Is this strictly etiquette vs house rules or is this defined in official rules somewhere?
Haven't read the other replies and I can only answer with how RRoP handles this with cash games. Tournaments have slight variations so this might be completely worthless but;
If player A request to see the hand, then it will be tabled and no longer mucked. Meaning if player b has the best hand, or player a mucks his hand, player b will win the pot.
If player c-z requests to see the hand, the pot is shoved to player A, THEN you show player b's cards. If player b has the best hand now, he DOESN'T win the pot. Player B's hand is only alive/re-born when another player going to showdown requests to see the hand (meaning someone who folded to a river bet doesn't bring the hand back alive by requesting to see it).

All of this is of course dependent on if player b's hand is easily identified.
 

grebe

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I’ll add this, for the folks that think “I paid to see that hand” is obvious. It’s a pretty foreign concept to me. I think I’ve heard those words uttered once or twice. It’s not a concept that is common or relevant or whatever in any games I’ve played in. I don’t know if it’s a regional thing or just a different rooms, different rules thing, but it’s just not something I’ve practically ever seen, FWIW.

I have only seen it done by less than competent players and hard asses....and only very rarely.
 

4SUMERZ

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In heads up,(cash game) I used to be a player that called and showed my hand first, and when I had the better hand, the other player would muck, so I would never see those cards, so I wasn't sure if they were bluffing or had a hand.
As I progressed, when I call now, I also ask, what do you have? I get to see the cards, and if they want to muck, then I can say, I called and asked to see the cards.
I've never been turned down to look at the cards that I called. If that means that I'm a less competent player, then so be it.
I have people at the table that love to bluff but always want to muck their hands. It's nice to see their embarrassment once in awhile.
 
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This has been a very helpful thread. I dealt informally for a few years at stakes above the ones I can play, and never once did I see someone request to see a mucked hand and then be invited back.

I suppose its a rule, but the room always went quiet and kind of stink eyed the player. Might have just been the one culture but I carried it forward. Player that joined my home game was convincing all the newbies to demand to see the cards and yelling "make them show!" At showdown even though she had folded. Exhausting.
 

surfik

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As far as I know according to EPT rules caller is entitled to see opponent cards, providing they are can be clearly identified (not mixed with discarded card and rest of the deck)
That creates situations that if you see those cards you need to share that knowledge with a rest of the table if someone would request that
If you would not insist on seeing mucked hand other players can not demand showing them...
 

glynn

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As I progressed, when I call now, I also ask, what do you have? I get to see the cards, and if they want to muck, then I can say, I called and asked to see the cards.
I've never been turned down to look at the cards that I called. If that means that I'm a less competent player, then so be it.
I have people at the table that love to bluff but always want to muck their hands. It's nice to see their embarrassment once in awhile.
To offer another view, I am a strong advocate of (and have a reputation for) fast rolling. In addition to being the more friendly and courteous play, I have found that it:
  • Establishes a friendly and congenial tone for the game ($$).
  • Inspires looser play by my opponents who learn that they can muck their embarrassment if they lose ($$).
  • Preserves opportunities for my opponent to muck a winner ($$).
The benefits far outweigh the value of "information" that poker players are often so concerned about. And really, if I can't figure out a range that my opponent would muck at showdown given the board and the action, then the perfect information isn't going to be much help to me anyway.
 

4SUMERZ

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To offer another view, I am a strong advocate of (and have a reputation for) fast rolling. In addition to being the more friendly and courteous play, I have found that it:
  • Establishes a friendly and congenial tone for the game ($$).
  • Inspires looser play by my opponents who learn that they can muck their embarrassment if they lose ($$).
  • Preserves opportunities for my opponent to muck a winner ($$).
The benefits far outweigh the value of "information" that poker players are often so concerned about. And really, if I can't figure out a range that my opponent would muck at showdown given the board and the action, then the perfect information isn't going to be much help to me anyway.
Believe me, the guys that we play with are all friends and have been playing together for many years. The joke of the table is that there is "no bluffing allowed". Of course, we do know that it happens and everyone is guilty of doing it from time to time. Maybe that's why many of us call and ask to see the cards of the one that bet. No one takes it to heart. We have fun with it.
Having said that, I still believe that if I call, the player will show his cards. I'm not going to be upset if he mucks without doing it, which shows that he was bluffing after all, and the other guys at the table will give it to him for bluffing when it's not allowed lol
 

upNdown

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To offer another view, I am a strong advocate of (and have a reputation for) fast rolling. In addition to being the more friendly and courteous play, I have found that it:
  • Establishes a friendly and congenial tone for the game ($$).
  • Inspires looser play by my opponents who learn that they can muck their embarrassment if they lose ($$).
  • Preserves opportunities for my opponent to muck a winner ($$).
The benefits far outweigh the value of "information" that poker players are often so concerned about. And really, if I can't figure out a range that my opponent would muck at showdown given the board and the action, then the perfect information isn't going to be much help to me anyway.
I’m with you there. If I’m calling, I’ll say “I call” and table my hand all in the same motion. And if they’re calling, I’ll usually say “I’ve got it” and table my hand before they can get their chips in. I have no interest in playing games or slowing things down. And I’m very rarely interested in what the other guy has, as long as I’m ahead.
 

4SUMERZ

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All I'm saying is if you call me, I'll show my cards. Its that simple. I can't understand why people have an issue with that concept.
 

upNdown

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Though now that I think about it, if the other guy fastrolls me, I'll often just muck. Although I still think "always table your cards" is the best advice. You might possibly have a better hand than you realized. There's video somewhere of Ivey either folding or mucking a winning boat. Nobody's pefect.
 

grebe

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I’m with you there. If I’m calling, I’ll say “I call” and table my hand all in the same motion. And if they’re calling, I’ll usually say “I’ve got it” and table my hand before they can get their chips in. I have no interest in playing games or slowing things down. And I’m very rarely interested in what the other guy has, as long as I’m ahead.

We finally agree on something! Go Team Go!
 

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