What should be done with the forces occupying the Oregon wildlife refuge? (1 Viewer)

[BiGGyT]

I'm more of the opinion that we shouldn't execute assholes in the desert with Hellfire missiles without due process, but since that's not a popular view, why are we making exceptions?

Some of us are not making exceptions. I did not say that was right, and I am not making excuses for the President's kill list either.

There appears to be a sizable and troubling difference in the offical response - we saw hundreds of militarized police with body armor, tanks, chemical weapons and high powered weapons deployed to deal with mostly unarmed protesters elsewhere in the nation but we see Oregon militia protesters left largely alone.

DrStrange

I am going to say because there is a difference between a few dozen morons with guns in a shack in the middle of nowhere and hundreds of protesters with gas bombs, rocks, bricks, pavement, bats, or whatever else they can get rioting and looting in a city, putting thousands of lives at risk from spreading fires and random violence.

I am not for lawlessness, they should be charged and have a trial and if convicted pay the price. No one is above the law, including celebrity, politician of the "affluenza" types.

It sounds like they are having a meeting today, will probably declare victory, and go home. It was not all bad:


"Meanwhile, the influx of law enforcement officials, reporters, politicians and the curious has caused something of an economic boom in January, typically a slow month for the area.
Cherrie Glick, a waitress at the Apple Peddler, said that in the last several weeks she's earned a couple hundred dollars more in tips, plus been called in to work more hours, as have other employees."Everybody who has come in has been nice to us," she said, noting she wasn't allowed to talk about the wildlife refuge. "


summary, break the law, pay the price BY JURY NOT HELLFIRE MISSLE.

 

[manamongkids]

I love deserts, especially apple pie

 

[atomiktoaster]

Some of us are not making exceptions. I did not say that was right, and I am not making excuses for the President's kill list either.

I think you and I are in agreement. We as a country have made the exceptions, though. The hypocrisy just bothers me.

 

[atomiktoaster]

I love deserts, especially apple pie

Non-US deserts are great too! Baklava, strudel, gelato, sopapillas... all solid choices.

 

[Jeff]

What's next, I disagree with what my town hall decided so takeover the public library? .

Yeah. Can you imagine? What's next? You could have groups (who not only don't want to pay taxes but who actually wants other people's tax money) take over a private park, or college campus quad or college building and force people they don't like out?

Even ranchers need a safe zone!

 

[gopherblue]

I'm totally sending them a video tape copy of Brokeback Mountain and some lotion...

 

[bergs]

Yeah. Can you imagine? What's next? You could have groups (who not only don't want to pay taxes but who actually wants other people's tax money) take over a private park, or college campus quad or college building and force people they don't like out?

Even ranchers need a safe zone!

I'm not advocating either approach to protest, but you understand that there is a fundamental difference between unarmed people taking over a park and armed people taking over federal land and threatening to shoot-to-kill law enforcement agents, right?

 

[Jeff]

I'm not advocating either approach to protest, but you understand that there is a fundamental difference between unarmed people taking over a park and armed people taking over federal land and threatening to shoot-to-kill law enforcement agents, right?

Yep, I see the differences, but I also see the similarities as well. Do you?

 

[bergs]

Yep, I see the differences, but I also see the similarities as well. Do you?

No, not really. One is really protest (whether you agree with them or not is immaterial) the other threatens law enforcement.

 

[gopherblue]

No, not really. One is really protest (whether you agree with them or not is immaterial) the other threatens law enforcement.

+1. There is absolutely no analog between peaceful, non-violent protests about social injustice and these seditious, wanna-be clowns. They are threatening armed insurrection and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Meddler2]

If they are violating local, state, federal law, then they should be arrested and tried in a court of law; not on a chip site. Hopefully the outcome will be resolved without loss of life.

Does anybody know what type of weaponry the militia has?

 

[Jeff]

These ranchers aren't sitting at a wall pointing guns at police. Harney county has over 10,000 square miles and only 7,700 people.

These morons are "occupying" a wildlife refuge (or the visitors center on a refuge), not something in a major public city where there are all kinds of peril.

They haven't ransacked a 7-11, stole TVs or burned anything down (yet), but if they get cornered by revenuers they may break open and loot the vending machine in the visitors center . Right now I bet they're in the gift shop playing with the eagle stuffed animals and fortififying their Arsenal with the rubber band guns

There's more on this craziness here:.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

Regarding analog...The other examples of this type of "occupy" protest all have some threat of potential violence by the protesters, overtly or implicitly. Any large mob in a populated area does. All have have peril and potential for injury (for everyone involved) if law enforcement were to drop the hammer. So therefore the government rightly proceeds slowly and negotiates to protect against injury or death.

Regarding peaceful, non violent protests...standing abreast on highways, marauding around libraries threatening people, pushing and threatening people on a quad asking for muscle, are not Gandhi moments.

Certainly, anything where someone points a gun at another person, they should be arrested. That has not happened here from what I can see.

There are big differences in what the various protests are about, but I see more similarities in this phenomenon than differences. They're all nucking futs.

 

[Jeff]

By the way, my recollection of high school French is that malheur means something bad, like an accident or misfortune... Hopefully not bad juju for this situation.

 

[DrStrange]

It has been over three weeks now. No one is wounded or dead. Two got arrested for stealing a car from the government and driving it into town. There is an on-going influx of new militia members coming in. In general, there is no effort to curtail the activity of the members of the militia and certainly no public presence of federal law enforcement in opposition to the militia. The destruction seems to be on-going but that might be hard to prove. The militia has set up check points on the perimeter roads and are restricting access to media and other on-lookers.

The county has built concrete walls using "K" rails to defend the county seat in Burns, 40 miles from the refuge, as a preventative measure. Local law enforcement is sending its forces out in pairs or larger groups just in case things take a violent turn. We have no reason to expect imminent violence, but better safe than sorry.

This weekend I am seeing mounting references that imply the militia leaders see themselves as part of the sovereign citizen movement. If true, that does not bode well for a peaceful end. The sovereign citizen movement has a highly violent fringe (well maybe it is more than a fringe?) that has turned on law enforcement from time to time in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

DrStrange

PS If you aren't familiar with the sovereign citizen movement, please take a moment to check it out. 100,000 to 200,000 members. The FBI classifies some of the membership as domestic terrorists and sees them as a threat to rival Islamic terrorists. This is an outgrowth of some of the right wing white supremacy groups such as the Christian Identity movement. ( Timothy McVeigh attack on the Murray Building was linked to that groups teachings but other members were never shown to be part of the plotting.) Let's just say these aren't your garden variety "open carry" enthusiasts.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I can't imagine it would be that difficult for the feds to slip some spy's into the midst of this group, given they are openly allowing recruits into the refuge to bolster their "militia". I would assume they already have agents in place monitoring the situation from the inside.

 

[Jeff]

Apparently law enforcement is took action to arrest the leaders of these people while they were away and one of those guys did enough to be shot. Im interested in the details, which are somewhat sketchy, but some of the reports say the guy killed was a real piece of work as far as some of the things he's said in other times. Kudos to the Government to handle this slowly with as little harm to people as possible.

 

[DrStrange]

It looks like this adventure is coming to an end this morning. The last four holdouts, facing the Feds in armored vehicles, agreed to turn themselves in today.

Cliven Bundy, a 'founding father' to this flavor of militia action, flew to Oregon, intending to join the holdouts. However he was arrested when deplaning - charges pending. I doubt he sees another day as a free man given his prior acts in the standoff at his ranch paired with whatever actions he has taken at/for the Oregon wildlife refuge.

On the plus side, the whole thing got resolved with only one dead and one wounded (pending a peaceful surrender this morning).

On the minus side, we got to see an example of the stark difference between "white" justice and "regular" justice in the USA.

In the end, the results were good. Life will go back to normal, the militia members who were charged and arrested will have their day in court and public safety hopeful will be better insured.

This is no resolution to the economic plight in the rural west. I doubt there is a happy resolution forthcoming. Extraction industries normally end in ghost towns when the resources are depleted. Ranching is hard work that barely is profitable on lands like those. It imposes significant damage on the local environment. The wilds of the American West are beautiful to behold, but it is damn hard to make a living on the edge of the desert.

DrStrange

 

[jbutler]

On the minus side, we got to see an example of the stark difference between "white" justice and "regular" justice in the USA.

I would put that on the plus side as well. Good to cite this as the proper way to handle such a standoff when possible.

 

[BiGGyT]

I don't understand your statement, looks like everybody ends up losing to me. Not sure how someone ending up dead is a plus, or how this is racial.


On the plus side, the whole thing got resolved with only one dead and one wounded (pending a peaceful surrender this morning).

On the minus side, we got to see an example of the stark difference between "white" justice and "regular" justice in the USA.



Seems to me this and Baltimore are just two examples of the Government asserting its authority, our choices in the voting booth is how we shape future responses by Government. It took Kent State to wake up some to see their Government was too oppressive, let's hope we don't need more death.

For the record, I do not agree with any movement against the government. I think that we need to reign in the controls the government has placed upon us through the nanny state and regain our liberty, freedom, and self-reliance. But this should be done through our elected representatives, not revolution or threats.

 

[jbutler]

I don't understand your statement, looks like everybody ends up losing to me. Not sure how someone ending up dead is a plus, or how this is racial.

Seems to me this and Baltimore are just two examples of the Government asserting its authority, our choices in the voting booth is how we shape future responses by Government. It took Kent State to wake up some to see their Government was too oppressive, let's hope we don't need more death.

For the record, I do not agree with any movement against the government. I think that we need to reign in the controls the government has placed upon us through the nanny state and regain our liberty, freedom, and self-reliance. But this should be done through our elected representatives, not revolution or threats.

Everyone could have ended up losing in a lot bigger way. One dead and one wounded looks pretty fucking great compared to Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. Law enforcement handled those situations like morons and contributed (along with the citizens involved) to the deaths of many. Here, they sat back and patiently waited until the situation could me defused with minimal physical force.

How could government action in removing armed citizens who are attempting to occupy federal land possibly be seen as oppressive?

 

[BiGGyT]

I agree, it could be worse, but doesn't make it good that "only one" died.

I guess I am mixing oppression with response. You do not need to shoot hippies, you do not need to shoot occupiers, you do not need to shoot rioters, and then ask questions. I agree with this response by the Government, wait them out. I just do not agree with some people suggesting these people should be killed immediately for threats against the government. I also do not agree with assholes ambush shooting cops because they are cops, or "peacefully rioting" with gunfire and gasoline bombs.

To clarify, don't be a dick with a gun, bomb, or bat. If you want to change something, go vote and hold your elected representative accountable for their actions. Giving them total authority to run your lives leads to bad things, as does being a dick with a gun, bomb, or bat.

 

[CHP TD]

i really thiught this was a joke.....


but its not

Unbelieveable

 

[BiGGyT]

saw this today, do not ask for people to shoot you (5:40ish if you want to avoid all the annoying beginning banter) because some will.

NSFW cursing and loud at times

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...doff-protestor-moments-before-fatal-shooting/

Still not happy about how this was resolved, but he literally asked for it, and when jumping out of your car, keep your damn hands up.