What is the law around charging time instead of raking pots? (1 Viewer)

[NitCole]

I'm out of NJ but in an area with no local games. If I hosted a game, I understand taking a rake from pots is a big no no. However- is it possible to circumvent this by charging time? Is there any difference if you pull from the table or charge off it?

As far as I know, this is how Texas has avoided hot water. They're clubs that charge membership fees and time.

Thanks!

 

[andrebttx]

Texas does do it that way, but that’s because that’s the loophole we’ve found within the Texas state law. As far as if that is kosher in NJ, you’d have to look towards your own state statute for that one.

 

[CHP TD]

^^^^ This

is it possible to circumvent this by charging time? probably not charging for gambling is charging for gambling. In Australia (yeah i checked our local law about this) the 2 things are not permitted. Noone under 18 and all proceeds must be returned to the players. i.e. no cut.

So the message is check the local law.

Even if scraping pots was legal i still wouldn't do it. Its a home game and your basically ripping off your friends. What sort of friend does that.

 

[Bacon Dad]

Why would you want to rake your home game?

 

[CraigT78]

that’s because that’s the loophole we’ve found

My deepest appreciation to you for whatever assistance you provided in the finding that loophole.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I think clubs charge by the seat, not “time” and being member of a “club” to circumvent laws. Altho, it is a certain time within the seat. @Anthony Martino ?

I’m not against home games if they are raked, but I would call it a “private” or “underground” game not a “home” game.

 

[Frogzilla]

Definitely need to check NJ law, some states completely outlaw rake free home games, etc.

Also there are a lot of misconceptions about legality of TX poker. Now that the asst DA dropped those gambling charges against me I feel more comfortable writing freely. Probably will make a longer post later but in short, it’s not legal in a lot of the state, but some counties/cities are allowing it since the law is somewhat vague. Most won’t allow a poker room to open up though, especially if you are close to the Oklahoma border. Weird.

A time rake for poker in TX is probably not legal. A time rake for sitting in a chair is legal, if poker independently happens to happen in front of you, still legal. Is it independent at those clubs? Ehhh, kind of have to squint. The statute is somewhat vague so maybe unenforceable. Was curious to see how these defenses would play out in front of a jury, maybe next raid.

 

[dpeks13]

I don't take a rake or have a charge in any way, but I'm fairly certain NJ is no rakes and no fees. I don't see the state police raiding any home games anytime soon though.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I think clubs charge by the seat, not “time” and being member of a “club” to circumvent laws. Altho, it is a certain time within the seat. @Anthony Martino ?

I’m not against home games if they are raked, but I would call it a “private” or “underground” game not a “home” game.

Doing it at a licensed membership club vs your house is going to be a big difference

Also, the "plo professor" tried copying the texas model up in Michigan and within a few months was shut down, had tons of money and equipment confiscated, had to take a plea deal to avoid jail time, still is labeled a felon AND he chose to put cornrows in his hair recently, you don't want to be this guy

I would imagine if there was a loophole in your state it would've been found and exploited en masse already

 

[wickedwonka121]

^^^^ This

is it possible to circumvent this by charging time? probably not charging for gambling is charging for gambling. In Australia (yeah i checked our local law about this) the 2 things are not permitted. Noone under 18 and all proceeds must be returned to the players. i.e. no cut.

So the message is check the local law.

Even if scraping pots was legal i still wouldn't do it. Its a home game and your basically ripping off your friends. What sort of friend does that.

Is tipping the host still a thing? When I used to play random home games in college, I was told it was customary to tip the host after a win. I guess it's unwritten. I won a game, about 200. Gave a dub to the host to thank him for hosting.

 

[NitCole]

Thanks everyone for the replies, a few things:
1. I already host some games with friends and family and don't take any rake or time. The only time we have is when we'd need new supplies and even then I don't think I ever actually took enough to cover everything, let alone profit.
2. Private game is definitely a better term for what I'd be trying to do. I've played in private games in NJ before but they were all raked pots.
3. I agree with both sentiments regarding if there was a loophole it would've been found, and the idea that it's unlikely (but not impossible) the game gets raided (assuming it just stays as a small 1/2 game). I know of a club in Central Jersey that rents out it's own building and has 4-5 tables and has never had issues.

To expand on the last point a bit, raking pots is likely more profitable and more sly than charging time. Players oftentimes don't pay attention to rake and I was at a game where they took up to $20 a hand for nlh or $25 for plo. In a given night they were raking a few thousand off the table, making the games unbeatable. I think this may be why hosts have generally just raked pots, as making hand over fist is worth the risk. Even if the game only lasts 6 months or a year, they'll have made enough to offset the inevitable failure.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Why would you want to rake your home game?

I know, right? This new "Raking for home games" thing is madness.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Ohio is regulated by county it seems. Several poker clubs throughout the state.

I’m shocked charging time is that profitable. Need to be able to rake to make good money if I had to guess.

 

[Frogzilla]

Ohio is regulated by county it seems. Several poker clubs throughout the state.

I’m shocked charging time is that profitable. Need to be able to rake to make good money if I had to guess.

$12-13/ hr is standard. Tables are 9 handed but figure 7-8 average and that’s ~$100/hr revenue per table. Dealer cost is what, maybe $5/hr max since they get tips. Same with cashier, server, host…labor is cheap because they’re tipped. Probably only need to hit 3-4 tables average (and that average includes busy Friday and Saturday nights) and boom you’ve got the scale for rent, security, manager.

I didn’t see the financials but from a reliable source my local card room, which charges time (but is very very busy), cleared around ~$10M profit last year.

 

[doublebooyah85]

!!! No shit …

 

[andrebttx]

My deepest appreciation to you for whatever assistance you provided in the finding that loophole.

That one was the royal we - and I’m wording everything very carefully to only talk about the law and legislation, and not venture into politics - while I certainly can’t claim credit for the discovery of that system, I can say it was a wild ride for us to protect it at the Legislature this year! Lots of legislation and groups trying to close down Texas card rooms came through the Capitol this year.

 

[bergs]

I know, right? This new "Raking for home games" thing is madness.

I used to occasionally rake $1 per pot that went directly to the dealer when he had a dedicated dealer. That plus generous tips and they did pretty well. Nobody is going to miss a dollar out of the pots we played. We might have had less than 50 limped pots in the 10 years or so we played circus games.

Never took a rake and kept any of it. Weird if you’re friends with everyone. If you’re not, it’s not really a home game scene.

 

[NitCole]

$12-13/ hr is standard. Tables are 9 handed but figure 7-8 average and that’s ~$100/hr revenue per table. Dealer cost is what, maybe $5/hr max since they get tips. Same with cashier, server, host…labor is cheap because they’re tipped. Probably only need to hit 3-4 tables average (and that average includes busy Friday and Saturday nights) and boom you’ve got the scale for rent, security, manager.

I didn’t see the financials but from a reliable source my local card room, which charges time (but is very very busy), cleared around ~$10M profit last year.

I think paying dealers $5/h is a bit frugal but otherwise yeah- hosting can be very profitable albeit risky.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I used to occasionally rake $1 per pot that went directly to the dealer when he had a dedicated dealer. That plus generous tips and they did pretty well. Nobody is going to miss a dollar out of the pots we played. We might have had less than 50 limped pots in the 10 years or so we played circus games.

Never took a rake and kept any of it. Weird if you’re friends with everyone. If you’re not, it’s not really a home game scene.

Dedicated dealers, I'm totally for. Raking to recoup costs, don't add those costs. If my guys want pizza for the game. One will order and those who eat will toss in (and generally, they make a profit).