What happens when shipping goes wrong. (2 Viewers)

[Carnth]

I saw this in a classified ad and moved it to its own thread for further discussion.

I was curious, if anyone knows, if you pay goods and services fee, then set goes missing, does paypal refund your total money ?

Yes, I believe they will. If you don't receive your purchase, or it is different than what was described (promised mint, but received bike tires), you are supposed to contact the seller first, and work out a remedy (like a refund or shipping a replacement item). PayPal will make you do this step.

If a remedy can not be reached, then G&S will get you your money back after the buyer proves that no shipment was received, and no remedy could be reached. (Getting your money back this way is known as a charge back.)

This is very bad for the seller, as PayPal will pull the money from their PayPal account, or bank account. And the seller could lose their PayPal account.

Only use the G&S refund (charge back) if you know (for sure) that the seller is trying to screw you over.

so it's in the seller's best interest to pay for insurance

In this instance, it might be.

You should only use G&S payments for people you don't trust, or if you want to pay with a credit card. Otherwise, you are just giving PayPal free money and putting extra burden on the seller.

As a side note: I'm not trying to tell people to specifically use FF or GS. There's a time and place to use either, but GS puts the onus on the sellers, while PayPal gets to keep all those fees for themselves.

Or, if you pay insurance to post office for shipping, and the package goes missing, the post office pays the sender who reimburses you ?

The post office (USPS) will make the sender provide proof of shipment (tracking number with the package being ACCEPTED is good enough), and proof of the cost of the item (the OP).
If the shipping box arrives damaged and the contents are damaged, the receiver will need to take photos of the shipping box and the contents that were damaged. (Receiver takes photos, forwards them to sender, who then forwards to USPS.)
After the USPS finishes their investigation (could take up to 4 weeks), they will cut the sender a check for the amount of the insured item, plus the shipping cost (including the cost of insurance). The seller can then refund that money back to the buyer.

If you pay both and package goes missing, do you get both payments ?? Just curious

No, if the shipping insurance pays, then you don't get a refund from PayPal G&S, because the insurance payout is considered a "refund" in PayPal's eyes.

This info is coming from my personal experience. YMMV.

So lets say $2000 order of chips were all badly damaged during shipment. Shipping insurance was covered for $2,000. When does the buyer get the money back? Before or after the seller gets the money back from USPS?

After.
The seller will need to open up the insurance claim with USPS, or whatever company they bought the insurance from.

The shipping company will ask the seller to provide evidence of the damage. (Photos)
At this point, the seller should contact the buyer and ask the buyer to take these photos (because the box is in the buyers possession).

Next, the seller will submit those photos to the shipping company as part of the claim process.

After the shipping company determines that the damage is legit (and not someone trying to get free money), they will send a check to the seller.

They ask for the photos to check and see if adequate packing material was used and proper shipping methods were used.
So, if you are the buyer and notice damage, start taking photos immediately before you unpack everything. Make sure to show that that box was taped securely, there was plenty of cushion material, nothing was over-packed, etc.
This part relies on the seller to do a good job packing the shipment.
The shipping company will deny a claim for poorly packed shipments.

...

After the check is cashed, the seller can then a refund the buyer.

If the latter, this could take a long time and shippers have been notoriously known to deny many shipping insurance claims,

You are correct, this process could take a very long time. It took me about 5 weeks to go through this process with USPS. Which I heard was faster than average.

so what happens in this event of a denial or very long time until refund?

If your insurance claim is denied, I think your only recourse at this point is to get a lawyer. So, you'll have to decide if it's worth it or not.

 

[upNdown]

I’d never advise anybody to pay for USPS insurance. The majority of claims I’ve read about and heard about from PCF users that have been denied FAR outweigh the claims I’ve read about that have been paid. In fact, the report I read recently of somebody actually getting a check from USPS may have been the first time I’ve read of that happening.
I can’t speak for everybody, so maybe somebody should post a poll. But I read most of what’s posted on PCF, and my opinion on USPS insurance on chipping shipping is hell no. Either accept the risk of the package disappearing, or find another carrier with good insurance.

And if a buyer asks me to use PayPal goods and services, I would refuse. PayPal FF or Venmo or no sale. I’m not a business.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I’d never advise anybody to pay for USPS insurance. The majority of claims I’ve read about and heard about from PCF users that have been denied FAR outweigh the claims I’ve read about that have been paid. In fact, the report I read recently of somebody actually getting a check from USPS may have been the first time I’ve read of that happening.
I can’t speak for everybody, so maybe somebody should post a poll. But I read most of what’s posted on PCF, and my opinion on USPS insurance on chipping shipping is hell no. Either accept the risk of the package disappearing, or find another carrier with good insurance.

And if a buyer asks me to use PayPal goods and services, I would refuse. PayPal FF or Venmo or no sale. I’m not a business.

New “ground advantage” which replaced first class package somehow includes $100 insurance free for the same price. Seems hopeful but at the same time, how could they afford that if they actually paid out all the claims they should

 

[Pinesol13]

I just went through this recently with USPS. I shipped some chips in a medium flat rate box, which comes with up to $100 insurance. The package went missing, only the fricking shipping label was delivered to the recipient

The claim and appeal process was a real pain in the ass, it was made more difficult by the fact is was part of a big group buy, do providing proof of the cost of the contents was a challenge.

USPS denied the claim twice, after my third appeal they approved it. Sent me a check, and I reimbursed the buyer. Took about two months

 

[Carnth]

I’d never advise anybody to pay for USPS insurance. The majority of claims I’ve read about and heard about from PCF users that have been denied FAR outweigh the claims I’ve read about that have been paid. In fact, the report I read recently of somebody actually getting a check from USPS may have been the first time I’ve read of that happening.

I actually went through the process and and got money from a USPS claim.
It was for a rack that I bought and a few of the chips were broken. As only a few of the chips were broken, I didn't ask for the full amount of what I paid, just for the cost of the broken chips plus the shipping cost.
My claim was accepted first time.
But I had to provide a number of photos, and it clearly showed that the box was dropped on its corner from like 25 feet.

Maybe I was lucky to get my claim approved.

For everyone:
I think your odds increase if you can provide photos of the box and the packing materials before you unpack the box.
If you suspect damage, start taking photos immediately of every step you take opening the box and examining the contents.

I can’t speak for everybody, so maybe somebody should post a poll. But I read most of what’s posted on PCF, and my opinion on USPS insurance on chipping shipping is hell no. Either accept the risk of the package disappearing, or find another carrier with good insurance.

There are also third party insurance companies. Like Shipsurance. I don't have much experience with third party insurance companies, so I can't comment to much about them, except that they are usually less expensive than the courier's insurance.

And if a buyer asks me to use PayPal goods and services, I would refuse. PayPal FF or Venmo or no sale. I’m not a business.

Would making the buyer buy insurance if they insist on GS be a reasonable compromise? I suppose that's up to the individual seller.

 

[Pinkdan]

Would going through UPS or Fedex be a better route if insurance is wanted?

 

[Carnth]

Would going through UPS or Fedex be a better route if insurance is wanted?

I have first-hand experience going through US Postal Service insurance claims. So I can speak on that.

I have shipped UPS a fair number of times, but every one of my UPS shipments has go through with no issues.
... ...
I just jinxed myself, didn't I?

Anyway, I don't have experience with UPS insurance claims. Anyone who ahs, please post about your experience.

I've shipped a few times with FedEx. Those have also been delivered without issue.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I just went through this recently with USPS. I shipped some chips in a medium flat rate box, which comes with up to $100 insurance. The package went missing, only the fricking shipping label was delivered to the recipient

The claim and appeal process was a real pain in the ass, it was made more difficult by the fact is was part of a big group buy, do providing proof of the cost of the contents was a challenge.

USPS denied the claim twice, after my third appeal they approved it. Sent me a check, and I reimbursed the buyer. Took about two months

That sucks sorry. What evidence did you provide to prove the package’s contents? Anything over a few hundred I usually record my packaging of it including the postage label being adhered/disclosed. Hopefully that’s be enough but feel like they’ll still auto reject it on the first go

 

[upNdown]

Would making the buyer buy insurance if they insist on GS be a reasonable compromise? I suppose that's up to the individual seller.

For me, no. I know you used to get a tax statement if you sold goods and services over a certain amount. Not sure if that’s extended to friends and family now, with the new tax laws.
But anyway, that’s always been my main reason for not doing goods and services. I don’t want a tax form and I don’t want stuff reported to the IRS because I’m not making any money on chip sales and I’m not interested in having to produce documents to prove it.
And of course I’m not interested in exposing myself to the liabilities of a buyer who goes rogue and says he never received a package.
I appreciate the question about how to compromise to make it work for the buyer. But I’m not interested in compromise. I sell chips just to get my money back. They’re usually priced low enough that I don’t have a hard time finding a buyer. If somebody is uncomfortable with my terms, sorry, I’ll just move on to the next guy.

 

[Matrixmoney]

I have heard that insurance claims being approved by USPS or Fedex is a huge challenge. There are other forums that cover how bad Fedex is when denying claims with a trove of proof of damaged goods. I guess I would still ask if the seller should reimburse BEFORE the insurance is paid out (assuming it is) or AFTER? Technically, buying from a business, you could dispute it as damaged and get your money back before the business reimburses, so I am wondering if the same would apply here. Maybe to put it simply, is insurance a seller/shipper liability or is it the customers (via making the customer wait to be refunded).

 

[Budha]

Would going through UPS or Fedex be a better route if insurance is wanted?

I personally have far worse experience with UPS then USPS. Getting something shipped UPS is almost a deal breaker for me.

I think a lot of it has to do with your local/regional distribution centers. The USPS distribution centers here are great, the UPS distribution center here is the worst ever.

 

[Budha]

I know you used to get a tax statement if you sold goods and services over a certain amount. Not sure if that’s extended to friends and family now, with the new tax laws.

Payment services like PayPal do not want to be liable for being on the wrong side of the new regulations.

i would anticipate they will take a very conservative approach and include anything that remotely falls within the “spirit” of the new laws.

It cost them $0 to over report (it’s your problem to defend why it’s not with the IRS). It costs them millions and millions and have regulators and auditors crawling up their ass if they miss/underreport.

 

[Carnth]

I guess I would still ask if the seller should reimburse BEFORE the insurance is paid out (assuming it is) or AFTER?

This is where you need to ask yourself the same question if you were in their shoes.
Most people here are just people indulging in a hobby. This is not a business, it's just a way to trade/buy/sell a particular type of "collectibles" with like-minded individuals.

If you sold a chip set for $2000 and then the buyer says, they were damaged, what would you do? Refund the buyer the $2000 before an insurance claim? Could you even afford it if you were counting on using that money for something else?

Technically, buying from a business, you could dispute it as damaged and get your money back before the business reimburses, so I am wondering if the same would apply here.

This is called a charge back. And as I said in my first post, it is extremely negative for the seller. They could lose the money and possibly their merchant account (if it's a business).

Sometimes charge backs are the only way to get your money back, but use it only as a last resort.

Maybe to put it simply, is insurance a seller/shipper liability or is it the customers (via making the customer wait to be refunded).

If you are talking about buying chips from other people on this forum, then you need to realize that you are buying chips from people who enjoy this hobby. I am not a big chip-selling business that does millions in sales. I'm just a guy who likes Paulsons.

I would take personal offense if someone went through a charge back on me without trying to communicate through PMs.

Again, I ask you to put yourself in the seller's position.

I've done this both as the seller and as the buyer. Both times each of us sent PMs back and forth and talked it out. Most people on this forum are pleasant, accommodating, and willing to work out a resolution that's fair for all parties involved.

But to directly answer your question: the buyer usually waits for the insurance claim to be paid to the seller, then the seller reimburses the buyer.

 

[Matrixmoney]

This is where you need to ask yourself the same question if you were in their shoes.
Most people here are just people indulging in a hobby. This is not a business, it's just a way to trade/buy/sell a particular type of "collectibles" with like-minded individuals.

If you sold a chip set for $2000 and then the buyer says, they were damaged, what would you do? Refund the buyer the $2000 before an insurance claim? Could you even afford it if you were counting on using that money for something else?




This is called a charge back. And as I said in my first post, it is extremely negative for the seller. They could lose the money and possibly their merchant account (if it's a business).

Sometimes charge backs are the only way to get your money back, but use it only as a last resort.




If you are talking about buying chips from other people on this forum, then you need to realize that you are buying chips from people who enjoy this hobby. I am not a big chip-selling business that does millions in sales. I'm just a guy who likes Paulsons.

I would take personal offense if someone went through a charge back on me without trying to communicate through PMs.

Again, I ask you to put yourself in the seller's position.

I've done this both as the seller and as the buyer. Both times each of us sent PMs back and forth and talked it out. Most people on this forum are pleasant, accommodating, and willing to work out a resolution that's fair for all parties involved.

But to directly answer your question: the buyer usually waits for the insurance claim to be paid to the seller, then the seller reimburses the buyer.

Thanks, I understand these are p2p transactions from hobbyist vs consume to business transaction, I was only asking for understanding in what the community expectation would be in such a scenario. Thanks for the information!

 

[upNdown]

Thanks, I understand these are p2p transactions from hobbyist vs consume to business transaction, I was only asking for understanding in what the community expectation would be in such a scenario. Thanks for the information!

The community is very much divided from what I can tell. There are plenty of sellers who say that once they drop the chips in the mail, their responsibility is over and good luck to the buyer.
If you’re taking about a large enough amount of money that losing it would make you uncomfortable, you should probably have this conversation with your seller before you send any money.

 

[ekricket]

If you sold a chip set for $2000 and then the buyer says, they were damaged, what would you do? Refund the buyer the $2000 before an insurance claim? Could you even afford it if you were counting on using that money for something else?

But to directly answer your question: the buyer usually waits for the insurance claim to be paid to the seller, then the seller reimburses the buyer.

I just saw a user roasted alive online on this forum for not refunding immediately, I mean like literally hours, after a complaint. Granted he didn’t make things any better with his explanations, but he was out on blast and instantly crucified for not refunding no questions asked initially.


So I’d take all this advice with a whole salt shaker of salt.

 

[upNdown]

instantly crucified for not refunding no questions asked initially.

It was as if he left the baby unbuckled, crashed the car and killed the baby.

 

[Carnth]

I just saw a user roasted alive online on this forum for not refunding immediately,

This is why communication is key. And if it can't be done in PMs, then post in public what actions you are taking to help and what actions are lacking from the other side. And ask what steps you should take next.

Something like....

I've sent the other person these PMs (copy and paste them) and they are not working with me. I believe that X should be done and they are not doing it..... etc, etc.

Forum admins have access to everyone's PMs, so if there's a dispute, ask an admin to verify PMs.

Then you can get the public opinion on your side, or if you're being unreasonable, on their side.

 

[ekricket]

It was as if he left the baby unbuckled, crashed the car and killed the baby.

And people think I’m mean…

 

[ekricket]

Forum admins have access to everyone's PMs, so if there's a dispute, ask an admin to verify PMs.

Umm you might want to verify the accuracy of any of your information. I mean it looks like we are on the same forum, but you are definitely describing two different forums.

 

[Samuel]

dupe

 

[Samuel]

I’d never advise anybody to pay for USPS insurance. The majority of claims I’ve read about and heard about from PCF users that have been denied FAR outweigh the claims I’ve read about that have been paid. In fact, the report I read recently of somebody actually getting a check from USPS may have been the first time I’ve read of that happening.
I can’t speak for everybody, so maybe somebody should post a poll. But I read most of what’s posted on PCF, and my opinion on USPS insurance on chipping shipping is hell no. Either accept the risk of the package disappearing, or find another carrier with good insurance.

And if a buyer asks me to use PayPal goods and services, I would refuse. PayPal FF or Venmo or no sale. I’m not a business.

For me, no. I know you used to get a tax statement if you sold goods and services over a certain amount. Not sure if that’s extended to friends and family now, with the new tax laws.
But anyway, that’s always been my main reason for not doing goods and services. I don’t want a tax form and I don’t want stuff reported to the IRS because I’m not making any money on chip sales and I’m not interested in having to produce documents to prove it.
And of course I’m not interested in exposing myself to the liabilities of a buyer who goes rogue and says he never received a package.
I appreciate the question about how to compromise to make it work for the buyer. But I’m not interested in compromise. I sell chips just to get my money back. They’re usually priced low enough that I don’t have a hard time finding a buyer. If somebody is uncomfortable with my terms, sorry, I’ll just move on to the next guy.

On the flip side, coming from someone (me) who is usually a buyer and not a seller, if a seller isn't willing to accept PPGS if I'm willing to pay for the GS fees, then I'll probably be looking for another seller or skipping the deal too...

ETA - That being said, this is one forum where I'd be more willing to deviate from my SOP and give PPFF a chance with youse guys...

 

[exodus]

I had a package that was lost when it was being delivered to me. I contacted the seller immediately and we were able to figure out terms that worked for both of us. YMMV.

 

[improviseallday]

As an aside, at the dollar value of the original listing ($7600), it's probably worth making a weekend trip for a local deal.

 

[Pinesol13]

That sucks sorry. What evidence did you provide to prove the package’s contents? Anything over a few hundred I usually record my packaging of it including the postage label being adhered/disclosed. Hopefully that’s be enough but feel like they’ll still auto reject it on the first go

First claim I think I included the overall bill from the group buy, plus screenshots of PMs showing the total quantity the buyer purchased, and included a letter from me explaining the whole thing. Eventually I had to get bank statements and copies of the PayPal receipts from both sides

One thing I will stress is I will never use those self adhesive shipping label pocket envelopes again. I'm pretty sure it somehow got ripped off of the package during sorting, and that's how the package was lost

 

[chippitydoodah]

It was as if he left the baby unbuckled, crashed the car and killed the baby.

If those CC PHAROAHS had been TIGERS or TRK he might be facing homicide charges!

 

[BGinGA]

Forum admins have access to everyone's PMs, so if there's a dispute, ask an admin to verify PMs.

This statement is not true.

Neither PCF forum administrators or moderators have access to private messages unless granted by the individual (by inviting them into the conversation, which can be done with any member).

 

[improviseallday]

> Forum admins have access to everyone's PMs, so if there's a dispute, ask an admin to verify PMs.
This statement is not true.

This is surprising to me, I thought in all forums, admins/owners have access to PMs (at least via database.)

 

[Carnth]

This is surprising to me, I thought in all forums, admins/owners have access to PMs (at least via database.)

I'm surprised too. For exactly the same reason (access to database/root, sudo direct file access).

Neither PCF forum administrators or moderators have access to private messages unless granted by the individual

I stand corrected. You learn something new everyday.

 

[ovo]

This is a great thread, thanks @Carnth

Someday I will sell, and I have never sold anything before. I wonder about being taken advantage of by someone, but generally I know this is a great forum to do business. I do wonder about a package getting lost, after I ship to the buyer. It's not my fault the package gets lost, but I would feel bad about the buyer not getting the chips, he or she or it paid for. I just have to figure out how to handle that stuff in my mind before I ever sell anything.