Tourney What I learned from hosting my first tourney after taking a 6 month break (1 Viewer)

[johnjohn]

the "friend of a friend" you described...what a douche.

Hot dog roller for sure.

 

[Blind Joe]

It can cause confusion. Say you're playing a $1/$3 game, player to the left of the BB calls by putting in a $5, and he takes two of the BB $1 chips to make his own change. If the BB and/or dealer don't see this happen it becomes very confusing.

EDIT: Just realized you were asking about making change out of the pot, which is a slightly different scenario than the one I described.

Yeah I can see how Player 1 making change from Player 2's bet can cause confusion, namely by making Player 1's bet appear bigger than it is and Player 2's bet smaller.

Is there a reason not to make change from the actual pot though? Say you want to call a 200 bet but you've only got a T500 and there are 5 x T100s in the pot from the previous street so you make a quick swap.

Another scenario that happens regularly in our games is a player taking his small chips back and replacing with a larger one if he needs to call a bigger bet. Eg, SB is 50 (2 x T25) and BB is 100, it folds around to SB who swaps his 2 x T25s for 1 x T100 to call. Is this a big no no?

 

[Justin Olson]

Not in the bottom scenario, your SB isn't actually in the pot yet, its just in front of you waiting for you to complete the bet, fold or raise.

in your call $200 scenario you always just place your $500 chip in front of you and let the dealer give you your $300 change.
Big no no to have players take own change, or make change from the pot willie nillie.

Keep in mind that all players should keep their Bets in front of them above the real or imaginary betting line until action concludes for that round of betting.
let the dealer make the change after action of that round has ended. this way only one person's hand is in the pot.

I am sure there are many many reasons for this. the big ones that i can think of are:

1. Keeps the math right so super easy for the dealer to know who needs change and when to give, as well as who needs to add more chips.
2. Keeps the additional time wasted in the Player A Bet $1000 with a $1000 chip, Player B Call with $1000 chip, Player C Call with $5000 chip and take 4 $1000 chips from pot, Player D Raises to $15,000 with 3 $5,000 chips scenario when Player A calls with 4 $1000 chips and 2 $5000 chips, player B folds, Player C only tosses in $10,000 more for a call because they see they have a $5,000 chip out there, and you have to remind them that they only have $1000 invested. Or deal with the help them with the math where they need to re-figure out how much to add for the call.
3. Many ways to short change the pot by accident or on purpose

 

[BGinGA]

What's the reason for not making change out of the pot?

Because the proper bet amount is no longer represented when this is immediately done by the player. Other players yet to act may look at that amount to determine their action, plus anytime the bet amount changes (due to a raise), now the original altered 'bet' is not an actual representation of what that player has put in (nor how much more they owe). Plus, if they get their own change immediately, the dealer (who is supposed to be making change) may erroneously give them change a second time, when he collects the bets.

Change should never be taken until after all betting is complete, and for consistency, should only be made by the dealer, not the individual player(s). It's the dealer's job to control the betting, collect the bets (and make change if needed), and control the pot -- don't make his job harder than it needs to be.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Another reason is keeping the flow going. Just place a chip in front of you and (optionally) say call.

This grinds my gears: Someone raises to some obscure amount and takes half the blind level to make change and get the exact amount and finally, when everyone's beards are half an inch longer, the exact amount is placed in front of the player. Then everyone else folds. Well good thing you spent all that time getting it right...

tl;dr: Don't have change? Verbalize your action, place a high denom chip in front of you. Next player!

 

[Mr Winberg]

Forgot one thing! An added bonus with this is that it penalizes players who don't pay attention. I absolutely love it when someone limps with a high denom chip and says "call", the zoned out person (who we all know) folds to the perceived raise, the player after limps with the correct small chips...

-"But I would have called had I known it wasn't raised...!"
-"Yeah, we're all feeling sorry for you!"

 

[Blind Joe]

I mustn't be understanding properly because it seems counterintuitive to me

Don't have change? Verbalize your action, place a high denom chip in front of you.

Because the proper bet amount is no longer represented when this is immediately done by the player. Other players yet to act may look at that amount to determine their action

These two posts seem to contradict each other. If one or more players are putting single high denomination chips in front of them doesn't it get increasingly difficult to remember who has called and who has raised? As BG says the proper bet amounts are no longer represented, and quickly eyeballing the new pot total would be harder wouldn't it? I've only ever played in a few loose home games so maybe it's just an experience thing.

I get that chips shouldn't be removed from the central pot because this would then be incorrect if any player was counting/eyeballing it, and I'm not advocating that. However, if a player exchanges his 1 x T500 for 5 x T100s from the pot then the pot amount hasn't changed. Is it purely a time wasting issue then? It seems like it would be more difficult for the dealer to remember what each of those big chips truly represents and then to make multiple change in one go at the end.

Example, SB is 200, BB is 400 but he only has a T500 and calls with that. UTG wants to raise to 800 but only has a T1000 so raises to 800 with that. Everyone has to remember all these different amounts instead of just looking at the chips, and the dealer has to remember exactly what the true bets are. I'm confused just thinking about it

I really want to do things properly but I can see me making a cock up of this rule

 

[Mr Winberg]

However, if a player exchanges his 1 x T500 for 5 x T100s from the pot then the pot amount hasn't changed. Is it purely a time wasting issue then? I

It's a time wasting issue, plus what BG said about the dealer being the only one handling chips in the pot, plus preparing your players and yourself for how it's done in a casino.

You're not wrong, it could get messy either way. Player A limps the 100 BB with a T100, B calls with a T500, C raises verbally to 400 with a T500, D calls the 400 with a T1000, E raises to 1000 with a T1000 (verbally, otherwise it's just a call, see "one chip rule").

Someone new now looking at the table can't possibly deduce the action, but the players (and the dealer, whether or not in the hand) should not be lost because they have been paying attention. A calls with a T1000, taking back the T100 himself, B can do the same (taking back the T500) and no change making was ever necessary. If B folds, he (and the dealer) should remember that the pot owes him 400.

As BG says the proper bet amounts are no longer represented

I think he was referring to if you place a T500 in front of you and then take chips from the pot. The pot is now wrong, and further action in this street can leed to confusion, more so than my scenario above. But if I understood you correctly, your question was about making complete change, keeping the pot intact and the wagered chips representing the actual amount wagered on this street.

 

[Blind Joe]

I will have to give this one a go. Intuitively it feels messy and prone to mistakes and that makes me nervous about implementing it, but like I say I do want to do things properly (I'll just have to see how my players handle it).

Just to be clear, we never take change from the pot, eg calling 100 with a T500 and taking 400 change from the pot — common sense tells me that's wrong because it's changing the pot amount — but up to now we have sometimes made change from the pot, eg swapping 1 x T500 for 5 x T100s and then calling the 100 so that the bet amount in front of the player is the same as his actual bet (and the pot amount stays the same).

It's probably more common for one of our players to make change from another player rather than the pot, for the same reason of wanting to have the right bet amount in from of him, but I suppose the same reasons apply for not doing this as for not swapping out the pot.

It's also quite common for the SB or someone calling a bigger bet to take back his small chips and replace with a big one, eg A limps with 100, B raises to 500. A calls and takes back his T100 and replaces it with a T500. Do I understand correctly that this is OK?

 

[Mr Winberg]

It's probably more common for one of our players to make change from another player rather than the pot, for the same reason of wanting to have the right bet amount in from of him, but I suppose the same reasons apply for not doing this as for not swapping out the pot.

No, I wouldn't say the same reasons. Making change with someone else may slow down the flow, but it isn't (what I know) against any rules.

It's also quite common for the SB or someone calling a bigger bet to take back his small chips and replace with a big one, eg A limps with 100, B raises to 500. A calls and takes back his T100 and replaces it with a T500. Do I understand correctly that this is OK?

Not only ok, but encouraged (IMO). Instead of counting out another 400 it's quicker to just replace the T100 with a T500 (plus, if you lose the pot, you now still have a bunch of lower denom chips and won't need to make change just yet).

The whole use-a-single-chip-instead-of-making-change thing is another one of those things that seem counter intuitive at first, and in the beginning probably will delay the game even more when your players are confused as to what's going on, but once everyone is up to speed it will increase the flow of your game. You need to invest in a couple of slow (and discussion heavy) nights first, though

 

[BGinGA]

Having another player make change is fine, so long as it doesn't slow down the action (i.e., call the T300 blind with a T500 chip, and then have your neighbor make change for you while the action continues). You can then swap out your T500 chip for your newly-aquired three T100 chips.

But taking -- or exchanging with -- chips in the pot is wrong, and also a bad idea. Those pot chips don't belong to you, and in many cases, aren't even there (especially pre-flop). For consistency purposes, anything should always be done the same way. More confusion is unavoidable if your rules allow players to make change from the pot sometimes, but not at other times -- the better approach is just don't allow it, period.

Dealers make change, that's one of their jobs. This also includes when the pot doesn't contain enough small denoms to make change after all the bets are collected -- the dealer gets a large denomination chip from the pot broken down from one of the other players, then distributes the change as needed. The only chips any player should ever touch are your own.

 

[Beakertwang]

Oh yeah—a couple other things I learned:

• The two-deck-shuffle-behind system is a lock for my game. It caused a little confusion and pushback at first, but everyone adapted quickly, and there’s more waiting awkwardly while a slow shuffler fumbles with and exposes the cards. We played so many more hands,
• I’ll always sit in the middle of the table and run the game, keep the hands moving, count pots, shuffle for players who won the pot on their deal, etc. It’s especially helpful for less experienced players. I’m seat 1, and everyone else draws for seats 2-10. Anyone else do this as a policy?

 

[Blind Joe]

• I’ll always sit in the middle of the table and run the game, keep the hands moving, count pots, shuffle for players who won the pot on their deal, etc. It’s especially helpful for less experienced players. I’m seat 1, and everyone else draws for seats 2-10. Anyone else do this as a policy?

Kind of. I introduced the 2 deck concept to my group a couple of weeks ago and the only way I could get it past them was to have two of the most competent of us be dedicated shuffler and dealer, which we did for about half the tournament each before swapping. My thoughts were that it sped play up a lot and I personally felt better about one person continuously having all the dealer responsibilities (especially collecting bets and mucked cards) rather than taking turns and players forgetting and/or getting it wrong. It helps if both players are sat next to each other when doing it this way.

 

[CHP TD]

Well done. Every game you host you will learn what works and what doesn't. Always looking for ways to improve the overall experience is a good thing.

Ultimately you want everyone to have a good time and hopefully keep your game going on a regular basis. As you host more and have more regular players it will run more smoothly and be more enjoyable for all.

To deal with the friend of a friend, next time a simple poster of the rules will quickly eliminate his antics. It will also be available for all the players in attendance. You can point to the rule and then enforce it acccordingly. If he still gives you lip then you can ask him to cool it or leave. He will get the message quick. His lack of respect to the host at that point is completely out of line. I would also address his behavior to your friend that you will not put up with that crap. You want good friendly people in your home, not strange know it alls who have no clue how a tournament is run.

For next time, if you have a bunch of players who do not regularly play tournaments and or new players to your group you can simply quickly go over the basic rules quickly before the tourney starts and then say most of all have fun.

A hot dog roller will be a big hit. Highly recommended.

Ugh... I feel your pain, I have some momories of a similar tourney.
Ive hosted at another persons house and had it go similar to this. The other people who own the house think they are running the game but know all the rules by watching maveric. I learnt from that and im happy to host at others houses but with just one proviso. You go by my (the tourney director) rules. Then you have to have rulesand have them handy.

You are the Tourney Director. You need to have complete control. I also often say to asshats like this "but your mistake was you thought this was a democracy." I also have a rule "argueing about the rules will result in a refund of your buyin and expolsion from the tournament."

That stops asshats like this in their tracks. And some of them need to STFU.

Comments like "relax, this isn't a casino." were also the catalyst for the argue about the rules rule.

good luck

 

[PlaidDragon]

You are the Tourney Director. You need to have complete control.

^^^^
Pretty much this.

I revisited the OP and re-read:

When I was doing color-ups, he snapped at me for touching his chips, and told me I was doing it wrong.

...

I'm usually the calmest person in the room, but the above actually might set my mouth running where I'd snap back. I suppose next time instead of coloring him up, you can leave him as the only one with low denom chips.

 

[ekricket]

new guy, friend-of-a-friend came. Pretty decent player, and was a pretty nice guy, but he acted like he knew everything. When I was doing color-ups, he snapped at me for touching his chips, and told me I was doing it wrong.

They are not his chips. They are markers you are letting him use to facilitate the game. Sounds like Maverick needs to ride back out in the range and get some lessons.

 

[neddi]

You need a button like mine:

View attachment 281471

Answer when someone questions the floor "read the side of the button".

L

was that custom or can it be purchased somewhere?

 

[chicubs1988]

When hosting its important to be a benevolent dictator. Take other peoples' opinions into account, but everyone should know that the final authority resides with you, otherwise games devolve into madness. A clear set of rules and expectations, with consistent enforcement from the host, makes for a solid foundation. I've always hated the idea that enforcing the rules of poker and proper etiquette somehow ruins the fun. A fun game is a game where you can all have drinks, joke around, and enjoy each other company while remaining confident in the integrity of the game.

 

[legonick]

Yup, and there was a hand where one player had 66 and another 77 so the 77 won at showdown, then he tossed a hundred chip to the other player...…...IN A TOURNAMENT! and they let him keep it.

My tongue was bleeding from me biting it so much around those damned casuals

...but why? I don't understand the logic.

 

[Anthony Martino]

...but why? I don't understand the logic.

You can't apply logic to recreational players like this, for them it's "fun"

 

[legonick]

You can't apply logic to recreational players like this, for them it's "fun"

So it was a pity 100 chips? Like I beat you, but barely, so here's 100 chips? Did it keep him in the tourney or something?

 

[Anthony Martino]

So it was a pity 100 chips? Like I beat you, but barely, so here's 100 chips? Did it keep him in the tourney or something?

Nope, had no real impact since it was early and the pot was small

 

[aaronroch]

I’ve found once you host a few times with mostly the same guys, and run a smooth game, the group tends to enforce the rules or at least back up the host).

“That’s not how we do it here” is music to my ears.

 

[Mr Winberg]

“That’s not how we do it here” is music to my ears.

"We don't take kindly to string bets 'round these here parts"