Tourney What do you feel are some must have rules? (2 Viewers)

[Larold]

I love this question. Announce too few rules, you might miss a big one - especially if there are inexperienced folks. Announce too many - you lose people quickly and drag down the energy.

I've found the sweet spot is about five rules announced. I have two sets - one set when the field has a lot of rookies, and another set I call 'reminders' for an experienced crowd.

None of these are new - just the ones I feel are the most important. I base this on 1) how common of a mistake is it for rookies to make, and 2) how bad can it get if it happens

Rookie announcements in order of my priority:

1. Place bets in front of you (don't splash the pot - I'm amazed at how many rookies do this)
2. "Use your words" - explain string bets, that they're not allowed, and verbal declaration is binding
3. Both high-denomination chips and cards must be visible at all times
4. Cards speak (and what that means)
5. Ask the table captain for help / they will explain mis-steps.

For that last one, if I have a large field of rookies, I mess with the random seating a little bit to get one experienced player at each table who can kind of coach / watch the action and help the noobs. I have a crowd of friends who are nice people, always happy to do this, and aren't total sharks.

For the experienced crowd:

1. What time we're eating
2. When rebuy period ends
3. Limit the table talk
4. We can take extra breaks or cancel / shorten breaks if everyone agrees.
5. Chopping final prize pool however remaining players want is fine with me.

Then, after both sets, I remind folks that if there's some sort of weird dispute, my ruling is final.
-

 

[maloviz]

This. I used to get a ton of flack for enforcing rules vigilantly and was referred to as the poker nazi.

Then one day I didn't have to, when a new player came all the longtime players were enforcing the rules without me saying a thing (took about 10 years). It brought a tear to my eyes.

I may have to assert myself again as I've started to have more issues with players slowing down action by sitting on their phones.

I'd love to get to this point but also don't want to be seen as a no fun hard ass by enforcing so many rules and constantly correcting players.

Here's some of the annoying things I wish I could easily make stop:
People getting up from the table and walking around between hands
People acting out of turn
People making comments on the board
People making loud, angry gestures when the flop comes out
People making change themselves preemptively instead of just letting the dealer do it
People picking their cards up off the table
People constantly forgetting the One/Oversized chip rule

I'm sure there are more but these are just some off the top of my head.

 

[KHarp1]

See, that's a string bet. Your approving nod doesn't count!

No, this isn't a F'ing auction! You must clearly state your desire for said nuts!

 

[drdr]

I'd love to get to this point but also don't want to be seen as a no fun hard ass by enforcing so many rules and constantly correcting players.

Here's some of the annoying things I wish I could easily make stop:
People getting up from the table and walking around between hands
People acting out of turn
People making comments on the board
People making loud, angry gestures when the flop comes out
People making change themselves preemptively instead of just letting the dealer do it
People picking their cards up off the table
People constantly forgetting the One/Oversized chip rule

I'm sure there are more but these are just some off the top of my head.

Some of those are worth educating players on. Others (walking between hands, self changing) aren't usually rules for home games and are perhaps a you preference thing. Pick your battles on what to enforce so you limit your rule nazi image

 

[Larold]

Pick your battles on what to enforce so you limit your rule nazi image

Couldn't have said it better myself. 1,000% agreed.

 

[MrCatPants]

I can only tell you from experience, that some people really like a "clean" game.

It's not about the conflict - it's about security. With almost no practice, you can demonstrate a shuffle where you drop an ace into your lap. 2 shuffles, and you got pocket aces (if shuffling off the table is allowed, certainly reading your hand off the table is allowed).

Explain why there is a rule. Tell them you want to enforce the rules not because you don't trust them, but because if they see these simple rules broken elsewhere, with players that aren't trusted friends, that they should be on high alert. Good habits build in game safety. Both at your game and at other games.

I know people can do this. But I've been shuffling and dealing for years and I still couldn't pull off this demonstration without 37 cards in my lap.

 

[DZPoker]

If you need to drop a deuce, there’s a McDonalds down the street.

 

[Defarse]

Keep your bet in front of you until the betting round is over and the dealer pulls it in the pot. This is very important in solving any disputes.

Another one I see is players making change out of another players bet or from the pot before the betting round is over. For instance, at 100/200, UTG raises to 800 and player next to him calls by placing out one 1k chip and takes two 100s out of UTG's raise.

But, I would say one of the biggest rules that really needs to be explained over and over is the oversized chip rule.

 

[Larold]

Another one I see is players making change out of another players bet or from the pot before the betting round is over. For instance, at 100/200, UTG raises to 800 and player next to him calls by placing out one 1k chip and takes two 100s out of UTG's raise.

This drives me absolutely nuts too. I should probably incorporate this into the bets-in-front-of-you speech.

But, I would say one of the biggest rules that really needs to be explained over and over is the oversized chip rule.

I am such a weird anomaly. Even with the number of tourneys I play / host with my crowd, I just haven't seen it a lot - even with noobs. (I know it happens all the time elsewhere.)

I think part of the reason could be I come from a crowd of technical minds - scientists, engineers, traders, software devs, etc. who inherently spend their lives disambiguating things. I've seen first-time-poker players in my crowd toss out an oversized chip, and without hesitation say "This is a 1,000 chip but I only want to call/raise 500. I'll need change if that's okay." On their FIRST TIME PLAYING. What a gift from the poker gods.

 

[drdr]

This drives me absolutely nuts too. I should probably incorporate this into the bets-in-front-of-you speech.



I am such a weird anomaly. Even with the number of tourneys I play / host with my crowd, I just haven't seen it a lot - even with noobs. (I know it happens all the time elsewhere.)

I think part of the reason could be I come from a crowd of technical minds - scientists, engineers, traders, software devs, etc. who inherently spend their lives disambiguating things. I've seen first-time-poker players in my crowd toss out an oversized chip, and without hesitation say "This is a 1,000 chip but I only want to call/raise 500. I'll need change if that's okay." On their FIRST TIME PLAYING. What a gift from the poker gods.

My crew is the same, research/sciences fields. They're also pretty cool when I correct them on a poker rule and like to know the details.

 

[Defarse]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740643442152399258

 

[krafticus]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740643442152399258

non-verbal action, more than 2 chips that are a ligit raise -- I call that a raise and a terrible angle

 

[maloviz]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740643442152399258

Tricky situation because 2k is exactly a min raise. I'd say this is a raise, but at my game I'd say "X raises to 2k" and if BB tries to say it was a call I'd let them know that it's not with 2 chips + being a valid raise amount but then let them choose to call if no other action has happened yet and I have no reason to believe it's a weird angle.

Definitely depends on the situation and players though. At my game 99% of the time this would be an accidental raise so I wouldn't be a hard ass about it.

 

[maloviz]

This drives me absolutely nuts too. I should probably incorporate this into the bets-in-front-of-you speech.



I am such a weird anomaly. Even with the number of tourneys I play / host with my crowd, I just haven't seen it a lot - even with noobs. (I know it happens all the time elsewhere.)

I think part of the reason could be I come from a crowd of technical minds - scientists, engineers, traders, software devs, etc. who inherently spend their lives disambiguating things. I've seen first-time-poker players in my crowd toss out an oversized chip, and without hesitation say "This is a 1,000 chip but I only want to call/raise 500. I'll need change if that's okay." On their FIRST TIME PLAYING. What a gift from the poker gods.

One player at my games ALWAYS says something like "BUT I NEED CHANGE!" when putting out an oversized chip . They could easily just say "call" or do nothing since I always default to the One Chip Rule, but they want to be extra sure everyone knows they need their change lol

 

[Larold]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740643442152399258

At the risk of derailing this thread, let me tell you why this is a raise. This is not a poker ruling, nor a floor decision, but rather how a cop/detective, philosopher (using logic by contradiction) or lawyer would think...

Here's the key: They deliberately and knowingly pulled back two separate chips as part of their final wager.


Before continuing, pause a moment and think hard about the implications of this. It's a great mental exercise.


The BB was deliberate in how they wanted to use the small chips in front of them. Specifically, they removed both. They -knew- how they wanted to adjust the value of the chips in front of them to represent their final wager. Now, here's what a (smart) cop would say:

If they were smart enough to involve the manipulation of the smaller chips to set the value of their wager, then they were smart enough to realize there was a much more efficient and obvious route to get to 1,100:

Had they wanted to call, they would have simply pulled back one black chip and replaced it with a 1K.

My personal ruling is that this is unequivocally a raise to 2,000, and if the BB claims any other value, including a call was intended, I mentally mark them as an angle-shooter. If I'm the floor, I politely remind folks this is why verbal announcements are to their benefit.

 

[Defarse]

Joe Cada says this is a call. Rule 45. Same if the action was on the button and he throws out two 1k chips.........just a call of the 1100.

45: Multiple Chip Betting

A: If facing a bet, unless raise or all-in is declared first, a multiple-chip bet (including a bet of your last chips) is a call if every chip is needed to make the call; i.e. removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves less than the call amount. Ex-1: Player A opens for 400: B raises to 1100 total (a 700 raise), C puts out one 500 and one 1000 chip silently. This is a call because removing the 500 chip leaves less than the 1100 call amount. Ex-2: NLHE 25-50. Post-flop A opens for 1050 and B puts out his last chips (two 1000’s). B calls unless raise or all-in was first declared.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1741115787933339681

 

[maloviz]

Joe Cada says this is a call. Rule 45. Same if the action was on the button and he throws out two 1k chips.........just a call of the 1100.

45: Multiple Chip Betting

A: If facing a bet, unless raise or all-in is declared first, a multiple-chip bet (including a bet of your last chips) is a call if every chip is needed to make the call; i.e. removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves less than the call amount. Ex-1: Player A opens for 400: B raises to 1100 total (a 700 raise), C puts out one 500 and one 1000 chip silently. This is a call because removing the 500 chip leaves less than the 1100 call amount. Ex-2: NLHE 25-50. Post-flop A opens for 1050 and B puts out his last chips (two 1000’s). B calls unless raise or all-in was first declared.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1741115787933339681

Interesting. I think the biggest difference is in the first situation 2 1k chips is actually a valid raise size. In your examples the amount of chips put out is less than an actual raise. This makes it much easier to believe it was meant to be a call.

 

[Defarse]

Interesting. I think the biggest difference is in the first situation 2 1k chips is actually a valid raise size. In your examples the amount of chips put out is less than an actual raise. This makes it much easier to believe it was meant to be a call.

Two 1k chips is a valid raise size but if you are on the button and put out two 1k chips then it's just a call. Same with the blinds.

 

[KHarp1]

Bypassing the slight shady of gray (pun intended) area of putting chips out and pulling some back that has become common these days, (that's another discussion for another thread) the fact that BB intentionally placed two 1k chips out, then pulled back his originally posted BB, makes this a raise. In the end his actions make a perfectly sized min raise.

Or, as a host, you could use this as an opportunity to make a point and tell them that it's just a call, or, that since they didn't announce their intentions, then it's a raise to 2200. However your want to have fun with it.

 

[Defarse]

Bypassing the slight shady of gray (pun intended) area of putting chips out and pulling some back that has become common these days, (that's another discussion for another thread) the fact that BB intentionally placed two 1k chips out, then pulled back his originally posted BB, makes this a raise. In the end his actions make a perfectly sized min raise.

But if you are on the button and put out a perfectly sized min raise with two 1k chips, then that is definitely just a call as removing one of the chips doesn't cover the original raise.

 

[KHarp1]

The play in question isn't what the button did, it's what the BB does.

 

[Defarse]

The play in question isn't what the button did, it's what the BB does.

Then what does a perfectly sized min raise have anything to do with it? If BB puts out two 5k chips then obviously raise to 10,000. Taking away one of the 1k chips doesn't cover the call so two 1k chips is just a call.

 

[Pinesol13]

Take the time to read the short form TDA rules. You may be amazed. The rules that you did not know will stick with you. The rules you've been getting wrong will stand out. The rest you already knew, or would have figured out.

Quite a while ago, I tried to condense the "important" rules to a single page, but it was a fool's errand. All the rules are important. If you want to know what I went with, here you go...
View attachment 1253940

Great set of rules.

I can't control myself, so I have to say that it's driving me absolutely crazy that on the first rule, the word "final" drops to a second line. No Widows!

 

[Poker Zombie]

Here's some of the annoying things I wish I could easily make stop:
People getting up from the table and walking around between hands

Walking around when you are out of a hand is legal. Perhaps annoying, but legal. If it looks like they are trying to peak at active cards, then you have a singular problem (like someone needs to be not invited back), but getting up to get drinks, use the restroom, or to make a call is preferred to waiting for break. Of course, if this also requires active players to scoot in or something, it could slow the game and then a loose house-rule could be made i.e. "Limit getting up if it is not break, as it disturbs players in the hand."

People acting out of turn

This is pretty common, even with experienced players at home games. Just make sure to remind them that their action is binding unless someone raises between the out of turn declaration and the player's actual turn. If the player abuses out of turn actions, they may be penalized (sit out an orbit for the first offence). Most of the time it is a simple mistake, and not the fault of the out-of-turn player. We have a player that often covers her cards with her hands. We call her skippy, because everyone thinks she had folded.
People acting out of turn

People making comments on the board

Tell the player "Poker is a game of observation. A player may be so tied up in catching a straight, that they might miss the possible flush. You pointing out the 4-cards to a flush may have just helped someone else - meaning you could have just taken chips away from from someone who would have won them".

However, if the board is obviously quads, you might just have to accept the gasps and chuckles.

People making loud, angry gestures when the flop comes out

Point out that if they are so upset that they have to "comment" on the flop, they should never fold another hand, ever.

People making change themselves preemptively instead of just letting the dealer do it

Point out that this can generate confusion if someone re-raises. If someone declares "call" to a T100 bet with a T500 chip and makes change from the pot, then the next player raises to T500, it is too easy for an unscrupulous player to just push your T500 into the pot, "forgetting" that they actually owe T400.

People picking their cards up off the table

This is legal. Bringing them off the table past the rail is not. Point out that it becomes too easy to start swapping cards by "dropping" one in their lap, and recovering a different card. You can also point out that it makes it too easy for their neighbor to see.

People constantly forgetting the One/Oversized chip rule

one of the biggest rules that really needs to be explained over and over is the oversized chip rule

Point out that "this could lead to inexact interpretations. You must make your actions clear. If you are unclear, your action may be interpreted in a way you did not want. The default action on putting out a single oversized chip is 'call', so you just called. If that's not what you meant, you should have been clear".

The first time I had one of my T100,000 plaques hit the table, I had a player play a single over sized chip (the plaque) without a word. He held it about 3' over the table, and made a whistling bomb and explosion sound as he dropped it.

We let the raise to T100,000 stand, because although he didn't announce raise, it was clear to everyone that he was raising.

 

[ArielVer18]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740643442152399258

“Easy” ruling only if you know the rules like the back of your hand. Most people won’t know this is a clear call of 1100.

 

[ekricket]

SB should show first. But really if they are just staring at each other instead of showing their cards and moving on the next hand, they are both being Douchebags. Show your hands and move on to the next hand. Pisses me off when players fuck around at the showdown trying to be dramatic, the rest of us are all sitting there waiting for the next hand. I think it's just common etiquette, if you're called show your hand and keep the game moving. To damn many slow rollers.

But, but, they will give away valuable information and their whole perfect game strategy will be revealed and they will never ever be able to play poker again because you knew what they had in that one hand.

Douchebags is right. Nobody is going to learn anything they dont already know - people play stupid cards. And stupid people won’t show both their cards. If you are one of those douches I got news for you - you are telling me exactly what kind of player you are by not showing both cards. That’s better information than actually seeing cards.

 

[ekricket]

Another one I see is players making change out of another players bet or from the pot before the betting round is over. For instance, at 100/200, UTG raises to 800 and player next to him calls by placing out one 1k chip and takes two 100s out of UTG's raise.

That’s an automatic raise from me, just to create the confusion this scenario caused.

 

[Defarse]

non-verbal action, more than 2 chips that are a ligit raise -- I call that a raise and a terrible angle

What if you are the small blind at 200/400 and it folds to you and you put out one 1k chip and pull back your SB. You think this is a raise to 1200?

 

[krafticus]

What if you are the small blind at 200/400 and it folds to you and you put out one 1k chip and pull back your SB. You think this is a raise to 1200?

Nope. That’s a call

 

[Defarse]

At the risk of derailing this thread, let me tell you why this is a raise. This is not a poker ruling, nor a floor decision, but rather how a cop/detective, philosopher (using logic by contradiction) or lawyer would think...

Here's the key: They deliberately and knowingly pulled back two separate chips as part of their final wager.


Before continuing, pause a moment and think hard about the implications of this. It's a great mental exercise.


The BB was deliberate in how they wanted to use the small chips in front of them. Specifically, they removed both. They -knew- how they wanted to adjust the value of the chips in front of them to represent their final wager. Now, here's what a (smart) cop would say:

If they were smart enough to involve the manipulation of the smaller chips to set the value of their wager, then they were smart enough to realize there was a much more efficient and obvious route to get to 1,100:

Had they wanted to call, they would have simply pulled back one black chip and replaced it with a 1K.

My personal ruling is that this is unequivocally a raise to 2,000, and if the BB claims any other value, including a call was intended, I mentally mark them as an angle-shooter. If I'm the floor, I politely remind folks this is why verbal announcements are to their benefit.

But a cop or lawyer isn't running the tournament. A TD is by using the TDA rules.