What do you do when you’re ridiculously stuck in a session? (8 Viewers)

DrStrange said:
Every Hero needs a hard loss limit. Hit that level of losses and it is time to go home.

Additionally, Hero should be racking up when feeling tilted. I admit this is easy to type and far harder to do at the time.

There is a different issue that I see in Hero's original post. If Hero's recounting of disasters was accurate, I fear the game was crooked. Just how well did Hero know the host, dealers and other players?

Hero played ~300 hands and suffered a year's worth of hard luck disasters. Set over set is a pretty rare event. It is not something expected once every 40 hands, again and again over the entire session. Second nut hands that lose to the nut isn't all that common in hold'em either. But all of these events are the sort of things that might happen in a questionable game.

[ editing in a bit of math. You get a pair once every 17 hands, If you never fold any pair, you flop a set once every 130 hands. Hero was astonishing lucky to catch a set every ninety minutes / 40 hands for eleven hours. And then to get so unlucky to be up against the bigger set every time. Lady luck can be cruel, but this is too many bad events in a short time. The time to go home came quickly. and Hero shouldn't go back either. ]

Normally, I put these sorts of stories down to bad memories, "fish" stories and too much drink. Who bothers to run a slick cheating operation in a $50 buy-in poker game? ( sure there might be cheating, but not a slick operation ) But Hero's game has $400,000 on the table. Those sorts of stakes makes a professional cheating operation entirely plausible.

Hero lost $80,000 this session. One could imagine a pretty good business model cheating a new mark each session. I wouldn't be staying for eleven hours in this sort of environment. I guess it could be nothing but bad luck. However, I wouldn't be taking the chance at some random underground card room with five figure buy-ins.

It seems to me that situational awareness is essential in these sorts of games / stakes -=- DrStrange
Click to expand...

This was a possibility that I really didn’t want to consider, though as cooler heads have prevailed, this is seeming more and more likely.

Here’s the background:

When the nightlife industry shut down the pandemic, the hundreds of nightlife promoters in Los Angeles needed something to do, and some way to make money. This pawned a whole set of underground cottage industries. Houses with basements were rented to create “makeshift nightclubs”. Large acreage properties with pools and lots of flora cover were taken over to create secret daytime pool parties. DJs played “secret sets” in the canyons, or the foothills, in empty campground sites. The bottle service waitresses from the nightclubs started working these kinds of events.

And then, one specific enterprising promoter watches Molly’s Game, and has an idea. He decides to throw a poker game, but with the feel of a nightclub. The bottle service waitresses now become lingerie-clad servers and neck masseuses; the bouncers become security guards; and so on. This spawns an entire panoply of poker games all across LA. The rakes make the games extremely attractive to host, and basically, the nightclub industry shifts over the pandemic into this thriving underground poker scene.

So, I avoided these like the plague. I might have trusted a promoter or two to get me a nice DJ booth at a nightclub, but a raked game where I don’t know the players? No sir.

I contracted Covid over New Year’s Eve, and had almost no symptoms. I breezed through a 7-10 day infection, and came out negative and chock full of antibodies. Itching to play some live poker that I wasn’t hosting myself, I asked some friends about the best games in town, and which ones could be trusted.

There was a non-raked game I was told about that I have posted multiple pictures of on this thread. Ugly mushroom chips, but incredible action, and after having attended about 8-10 times, felt and seemed totally legit. It has been, and I’ve had an excellent winning streak at that specific game.

The girls at the game are usually the same ones every week, and I has struck up a rapport with a USC-grad smartie who understood poker, applauded the right hands and ended up being a lucky charm; and we became friends.

About 7 weeks into the friendship and several games later, she told me about another game she worked, who played in it, and that she was being transparent, if she brought another player to the game, she was given a bonus. She said the guys were incredibly cool and that even though it was raked, it was really well run, in a beautiful neighborhood in the hills, called The Bird Streets.

Call it stupidity, but I trusted her, and I went to this game. It was here that this happened. Of course, in retrospect, I should have walked away after the 2nd or third set over set; but when you’re in it, it’s hard to describe the need to get out of the hole, especially if you hate losing at anything as much as I do.

It’s obvious to me now, after reflection on all the hands, it was rigged. I am amazed that while I was in it, I was almost Stockholm Syndromed into thinking she was as devastated as I was with the losses.

The good news is that it didn’t make more than a dent in my poker bankroll overall; but it was a learning experience for sure.

I now have to decide what to do about the game. There’s a side to me no one really wants to see that’s itching to get out. More to come after some reflection. I’m now asking around about this game.
 
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Windwalker said:
This was a possibility that I really didn’t want to consider, though as cooler heads have prevailed, this is seeming more and more likely.

Here’s the background:

When the nightlife industry shut down the pandemic, the hundreds of nightlife promoters in Los Angeles needed something to do, and some way to make money. This pawned a whole set of underground cottage industries. Houses with basements were rented to create “makeshift nightclubs”. Large acreage properties with pools and lots of flora cover were taken over to create secret daytime pool parties. DJs played “secret sets” in the canyons, or the foothills, in empty campground sites. The bottle service waitresses from the nightclubs started working these kinds of events.

And then, one specific enterprising promoter watches Molly’s Game, and has an idea. He decides to throw a poker game, but with the feel of a nightclub. The bottle service waitresses now become lingerie-clad servers and neck masseuses; the bouncers become security guards; and so on. This spawns an entire panoply of poker games all across LA. The rakes make the games extremely attractive to host, and basically, the nightclub industry shifts over the pandemic into this thriving underground poker scene.

So, I avoided these like the plague. I might have trusted a promoter or two to get me a nice DJ booth at a nightclub, but a raked game where I don’t know the players? No sir.

I contracted Covid over New Year’s Eve, and had almost no symptoms. I breezed through a 7-10 day infection, and came out negative and chock full of antibodies. Itching to play some live poker that I wasn’t hosting myself, I asked some friends about the best games in town, and which ones could be trusted.

There was a non-raked game I was told about that I have posted multiple pictures of on this thread. Ugly mushroom chips, but incredible action, and after having attended about 8-10 times, felt and seemed totally legit. It has been, and I’ve had an excellent winning streak at that specific game.

The girls at the game are usually the same ones every week, and I has struck up a rapport with a USC-grad smartie who understood poker, applauded the right hands and ended up being a lucky charm; and we became friends.

About 7 weeks into the friendship and several games later, she told me about another game she worked, who played in it, and that she was being transparent, if she brought another player to the game, she was given a bonus. She said the guys were incredibly cool and that even though it was raked, it was really well run, in a beautiful neighborhood in the hills, called The Bird Streets.

Call it stupidity, but I trusted her, and I went to this game. It was here that this happened. Of course, in retrospect, I should have walked away after the 2nd or third set over set; but when you’re in it, it’s hard to describe the need to get out of the hole, especially if you hate losing at anything as much as I do.

It’s obvious to me now, after reflection on all the hands, it was rigged. I am amazed that while I was in it, I was almost Stockholm Syndromed into thinking she was as devastated as I was with the losses.

The good news is that it didn’t make more than a dent in my poker bankroll overall; but it was a learning experience for sure.

I now have to decide what to do about the game. There’s a side to me no one really wants to see that’s itching to get out. More to come after some reflection. I’m now asking around about this game.
Click to expand...

Be aware the girl who brought you may have no idea the game is rigged, she just knows she gets paid for bringing in players

Someone running this sort of operation is going to want as few people to be in on it as possible, to reduce the chances they get caught

Best bet may be to get the game busted, rather than a more drastic option I fear you're considering....
 
utgtrash said:
7 undersets is really statistically tough to do unless you’re playing plo which even then us tough, but you can fold that in plo.
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RDT_20210524_1521168032617010850970801.jpg
 
Taghkanic said:
OTOH, if this was indeed a scam, it seems like they overplayed their hand, so to speak. Instead of going for the long con, why deal so many bad beats in one session that it raises alarms? I guess maybe they got greedy. But it’s not how David Mamet would draw it up.

View attachment 705163
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Yep, or I hit a statistical anomaly. Either way, self reflection reveals one thing: In NLH, I don’t tilt often, if ever — but when I do, i play badly. Maybe it was a combination of a scam and my tilting that creates the total loss. Either way, @DrStrange had some really good points that I was too close to consider while I was there.

I hired someone this morning to check the game out. If they are indeed doing this to different marks (and there are some amazingly great ones in LA), then something needs to be done about it.
 
I think you’re too hard on yourself for not raising the 58s

It certainly plays better as a 3 bet but depending on how passive the blinds are you can get away with a flat. Certainly +EV to see a flop with it deep IP against a range that includes good ole 35o
 
In 11 hours you’re probably getting dealt 330 hands if it’s a full table or maybe 500 hands if you’re playing with fewer people - you make the estimate.

Of that, let’s say you have a VPIP of 30% (the high side), which means you might be seeing roughly 99 to 150 flops.

Since you’ve hit 7 sets, 2 full houses, and 5 flushes (14 hands) you’re hitting monster hands 9-14% of the time you enter the pot, which is an absurd rate since a player misses the flop 2/3 of the time. This doesn’t include the 4 runner runner beats since I’m not sure what types of hands that was.

I think there’s a chance you might be misremembering the number of bad beats in an 11 hour session or there’s cheating going on?
 
khp said:
I think there’s a chance you might be misremembering the number of bad beats in an 11 hour session or there’s cheating going on?
Click to expand...
I keep a record of hands, mostly. I may be off by one or two, but yeah, it’s about right. When I was in it, it didn’t seem like something was wrong. See my follow up posts above.
 
Windwalker said:
I keep a record of hands, mostly. I may be off by one or two, but yeah, it’s about right. When I was in it, it didn’t seem like something was wrong. See my follow up posts above.
Click to expand...
Yikes, good luck with the investigation.
 
Windwalker said:
In a 11-hour session, I got cracked in the following ways:

- 7 middle or bottom sets beaten by top or middle sets.
- 2 full houses beaten by bigger boats.
- 5 flushes beaten by bigger flushes.
- 4 runner-runner cracks after all-in pushes.
Click to expand...

How did these hands actually play out?

For set over set, were these flopped? Or villain had an over pair and hit it on the turn or river? Or villain was betting for value each street and you caught on turn or river?

Flush over flush: 3 to the flush on board or 4? How did it play out? Flopped or drawn to?

Did it seem like the entire table was in on it? Ie. You were caught in the middle of bets and then reraises behind. Or were these heads up situations?

Assuming there was a dedicated dealer? Or self dealt?

Were you the only one down?
 
If this was a cheat, how the hell did they pull this off. only the best mechanics in the world can track a whole deck. Slugs at a time maybe. Top and bottom cards easily. Middle cards, not so much. These runner runners, set over sets and everything described would be impossible for a mechanic to pull off during play, hand after hand. There would have to have been a new cold deck introduced each hand one of these super bad beats happened.

If it was aces vs kings preflop a bunch of times, then yeah, maybe an outstanding mechanic is the culprit. But running it twice and straight over straights is impossible for just dealer to pull off time after time. imo.

I've heard of one or two cold decks being introduced over an entire night to felt the mark (a good friend of mine was the mark). But never like a dozen or so. Was there a shuffle machine being used, under the table or off the table somewhere? Someone constantly hovering over and around the table/dealer or seat 1/9? just trying to think how they can introduce over a dozen cold decks onto the felt without one or more people noticing.
 
TheDuke said:
How did these hands actually play out?

For set over set, were these flopped? Or villain had an over pair and hit it on the turn or river? Or villain was betting for value each street and you caught on turn or river?

Flush over flush: 3 to the flush on board or 4? How did it play out? Flopped or drawn to?

Did it seem like the entire table was in on it? Ie. You were caught in the middle of bets and then reraises behind. Or were these heads up situations?

Assuming there was a dedicated dealer? Or self dealt?

Were you the only one down?
Click to expand...

casinochipper22 said:
If this was a cheat, how the hell did they pull this off. only the best mechanics in the world can track a whole deck. Slugs at a time maybe. Top and bottom cards easily. Middle cards, not so much. These runner runners, set over sets and everything described would be impossible for a mechanic to pull off during play, hand after hand. There would have to have been a new cold deck introduced each hand one of these super bad beats happened.

If it was aces vs kings preflop a bunch of times, then yeah, maybe an outstanding mechanic is the culprit. But running it twice and straight over straights is impossible for just dealer to pull off time after time. imo.

I've heard of one or two cold decks being introduced over an entire night to felt the mark (a good friend of mine was the mark). But never like a dozen or so. Was there a shuffle machine being used, under the table or off the table somewhere? Someone constantly hovering over and around the table/dealer or seat 1/9? just trying to think how they can introduce over a dozen cold decks onto the felt without one or more people noticing.
Click to expand...

Getting some more info on the game this week, so will respond to these when I have that.
 
Windwalker said:
Getting some more info on the game this week, so will respond to these when I have that.
Click to expand...
no worries. none of my biz. just thinking out loud and trying to give some perspective. just some things to think about. but in general, Confucius said it best, if you seek vengeance, first dig two graves. haha. maybe just call the cops tell them to raid the game and leave it up to the poker gods for some karma. sounds like chump change to you in the grand scheme of things. good luck with the damage control.
 
Windwalker said:
Getting some more info on the game this week, so will respond to these when I have that.
Click to expand...

Still hoping you might address the questions from @TheDuke et al. about the actual gameplay, without waiting for an outside investigation… Presumably an investigator can’t improve on your own excellent firsthand memory.

Items such as whether you were being drawn out on later streets, or if you hit your sets on the River; whether the same 1-2 players were hitting their draws against you; whether you were getting squeezed between two betters; whether there was one dedicated dealer, or rotating dealers, or if it was self dealt… All such details could help deduce the nature of the con, if any.
 
Most of of the time this. But If it depends on what beer I'm drinking and if there's a lot of action on the table.

Geremie said:
It really isn’t about how much you’re up or down, but more so the mental state. If you’re fresh and thinking clearly, then you can still play your optimal game...there’s potential to climb out of the hole.

But once your decision making becomes spewy (even if it’s only 1x rebuy or 10x rebuy), then it’s not optimal to continue.
Click to expand...
 
Taghkanic said:
Still hoping you might address the questions from @TheDuke et al. about the actual gameplay, without waiting for an outside investigation… Presumably an investigator can’t improve on your own excellent firsthand memory.

Items such as whether you were being drawn out on later streets, or if you hit your sets on the River; whether the same 1-2 players were hitting their draws against you; whether you were getting squeezed between two betters; whether there was one dedicated dealer, or rotating dealers, or if it was self dealt… All such details could help deduce the nature of the con, if any.
Click to expand...
Yep, I have notes to share; I jotted down a draft response, just waiting for a quick bit, until I have some intel. @navels post (and a couple of PMs) got me a little paranoid.
 
DrStrange said:
Every Hero needs a hard loss limit. Hit that level of losses and it is time to go home.
Click to expand...
100% agree

DrStrange said:
I guess it could be nothing but bad luck. However, I wouldn't be taking the chance at some random underground card room with five figure buy-ins.
................
It seems to me that situational awareness is essential in these sorts of games / stakes -=- DrStrange
Click to expand...
I had not considered that this might be a scam at first...

Windwalker said:
Here’s the background:.......
Click to expand...
After reading the background, it seems more likely that you were the mark in a scam/sting.

Windwalker said:
I now have to decide what to do about the game. There’s a side to me no one really wants to see that’s itching to get out. More to come after some reflection. I’m now asking around about this game.
Click to expand...
If, after digging around, you determine that you were the target of a scam I would suggest reporting the game to the police and not taking it further than that. Considering that you say this was a small % of your bankroll, I think that the last thing you want to do is get yourself involved in something that you regret later. You are not likely to get the money back and reporting the game to the Police will likely get you the results that you are looking for without risking your safety/freedom etc.

Windwalker said:
I hired someone this morning to check the game out. If they are indeed doing this to different marks (and there are some amazingly great ones in LA), then something needs to be done about it.
Click to expand...
I agree. I believe that reporting the game to the police would be the appropriate response. (See above)

ChipFinderSK said:
Sounds like you were cheated. At least they made it obvious.
Click to expand...
It is certainly looking like this is likely
 
Having been the mark myself over 20 years ago, i can totally relate to your situation.

As honest player/person who hasn’t had the joy of such an experience, one doesn’t even consider the possibility of a setup until afterwards, although in my case there would have been some red flags if attention had been paid...
In my case it was „only“ 1k until i stopped the session, but the „bad beats“ were so ridiculous i always thought i should have at least suspected it then. Only afterwards all the pieces fell into place.

Marked deck, almost unnoticeably tinted contact lenses on one guy, and slightly coloured glasses on the other. I also found out that one of the guys is known for cheating at all card games (not only poker) he plays.
I didn‘t even bother contacting the authorities (wouldn‘t have done shit anyways, as it was an underground game), and 1k is by far too less to stoop to their level and have em beat or threatened. I just let people know (funny, as their reputation preceded them anyway, only i didnt know) and shrugged it of as lesson learned and an investment in better attention ever since.
 
Wow, this sucks. Very sorry. I can’t relate to much in this thread beyond the craptastic feeling of possibly getting set up by a hotty.

However, the person who said to stop posting here is correct. In the event things go sideways this entire thread is discoverable evidence.
 

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