Was this a villain angle shoot? (1 Viewer)

[PhilLaFond]

I don't typically recall hands well enough to post about them, but this one stuck with me, mainly because it involved a hero who I happen to know, and play cards with on occasion. Last Friday evening I was at the Horseshoe in Baltimore playing in their Friday night double green chip bounty tourney when this happened, fairly early. Blinds are 50/100, villain raises pre to 300 in mid position. Villain has been playing a fair amount of hands, it's late in the level, and he's already shown one bluff. BTW, he's already needled a couple players and said "ship it" twice when he won a couple pots at showdown. Kinda of a d-bag. Gets two callers, the small blind (hero) calls and the BB folds. Flop comes . Small blind checks, villain bets 500. Both callers fold, hero calls. 2200 in the pot. Turn is the . Small blind checks, villain throws out 4 chips (2 5Ks and 2 1Ks), then says "Oh crap, meant to bet 1200. Thought those were hundreds" (meaning the two 5K chips, which are dark cranberry - the hundreds are light gray). Of course it's binding and the hero immediately says "All in, All in!!" Villain insta calls and flips over a set of Kings. Hero, of course, has the nut flush. River pairs the board with the and the villain starts cackling as he pulls the pot. I know the hero, who chases everything, but the villain likely didn't know his play this early in the tourney.

So...not withstanding what I thought was a weak flop bet, and the horrible beat...was the betting "mistake" an angle shoot?? Curious as to some of your opinions. Discuss...

 

[upNdown]

Definitely an angle Nobody confuses those 5k chips with anything else.

 

[Kain8]

I really don't have much experience against douchey players / anglers in general but this is pretty blatant angling I'd say. Just wish the flush held for hero.

 

[WedgeRock]

Not so much angling as trying to induce a call (representing a weaker 1200 hand).

Whatever you call it, its a douche-y play.

Reminds me of that "Good call.... oh I thought you said 'call'" play from the World Series last year.

 

[bergs]

Sounds like an angle gone bad that got bailed out. Hero wanted a bigger bet there to jam over and induce the all in call - hero was substantially ahead.

 

[bergs]

At least alert the floor to it if he's a reg - maybe if it happens repeatedly the floor will see the situation and give the other player a warning regarding his tendencies (this happened at a WSOP or similar major tournament a while back if memory serves).

 

[MikesDad]

Angle.. No doubt

 

[BGinGA]

villain throws out 4 chips (2 5Ks and 2 1Ks), then says "Oh crap, meant to bet 1200. Thought those were hundreds"

Unless the villain has a history of this or shooting other angles, I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. Being a bit of a douche doesn't necessarily mean hes's an angle-shooter. If 1200 wasn't a 'normal' sized bet in this situation, I'd be more skeptical.

It's not that unusual for a player to mistakenly throw in an incorrect 1200 bet, especially when "standard" chip colors aren't being used.... it's actually one of the more common betting mistakes (actually betting something other than an intended 700 is another common one). Happens more than once, he's gonna hear about it from both me and the floor/TD.

 

[upNdown]

Unless the villain has a history of this or shooting other angles, I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. Being a bit of a douche doesn't necessarily mean hes's an angle-shooter. If 1200 wasn't a 'normal' sized bet in this situation, I'd be more skeptical.

It's not that unusual for a player to mistakenly throw in an incorrect 1200 bet, especially when "standard" chip colors aren't being used.... it's actually one of the more common betting mistakes (actually betting something other than an intended 700 is another common one). Happens more than once, he's gonna hear about it from both me and the floor/TD.

I gotta disagree with that, and here's why. If the blinds were 50/100, I'm guessing they were on the second level of a 25/50 tournament, so they probably started with somewhere between 12k and 25k stacks. Maybe there was a 10k in the stack, who knows, but the point is that the 5k chip represented a huge percentage of their stack, and they only started with a couple or a few.
Those are the chips you glance for when you're looking around to see if anybody is short stacked. Those are the big chips used to keep score. You know exactly what those chips are worth and you're not accidentally tossing a couple into the pot.

 

[PhilLaFond]

I gotta disagree with that, and here's why. If the blinds were 50/100, I'm guessing they were on the second level of a 25/50 tournament, so they probably started with somewhere between 12k and 25k stacks. Maybe there was a 10k in the stack, who knows, but the point is that the 5k chip represented a huge percentage of their stack, and they only started with a couple or a few.
Those are the chips you glance for when you're looking around to see if anybody is short stacked. Those are the big chips used to keep score. You know exactly what those chips are worth and you're not accidentally tossing a couple into the pot.

Yes, it was level 2 and we started with 15K - one 5K chip. Villain had felted one player already, so he was either using the only two he had, or he may have had one left behind, as he had been chipping up. Either way, the max he had was 3. And he had a stack of the grays...

 

[BGinGA]

Glass half-full vs half-empty. Guy takes two dark chips off the top of his stack thinking they are either hundos or $500s..... not a stretch, by any means. Especially when he's super-stoked he just hit top set.

 

[BGinGA]

I gotta disagree with that

So if a shy hottie did the same thing, would you peg her for an angle-shooting bitch? Or just an innocent mistake? I think the douche context is swaying opinion.

 

[MegaTon44]

Glass half-full vs half-empty. Guy takes two dark chips off the top of his stack thinking they are either hundos or $500s..... not a stretch, by any means. Especially when he's super-stoked he just hit top set.

I agree. In my opinion, it feels less like an angle shoot, more nervous betting from flopping a monster.

Whether an angle or just a subconscious mistake, I'm putting him on a premium hand and squeezing every dollar out of him with the nuts.

 

[upNdown]

For me, the bottom line is that whether or not it's an angle, it's not a particularly strong one. It's no different from table talk, where a guy says he never looked at his cards, or he's begging for a call. When I'm faced with play like that, and I can't decide whether to believe somebody or not, I ignore it and try to evaluate everything else that has happened in the hand independent from that.
If it's an angle, it's sneaky and douchey, but it's only worth anything if you let it get into your head.

 

[QuiQuog]

So he throws out 2 5ks and 2 1ks for a total of 12,000. If he thought the 2 cranberries were 100s, then wouldn't his intention have been to bet 2200?

 

[BGinGA]

Who knows what he was thinking. We don't know the colors of any of the chips besides the 100 and 5000.

But yeah, it's really not an angle shoot, in any case. No other outcome is possible than the actual bet amount.

Players can say anything they want at the table. Might be considered to be a douche move by some to try and trick your opponent into making a bad decision based on faulty information -- which incidentally, is something that's intentionally done by any decent player on a regular basis at the poker table.

 

[upNdown]

I agree. In my opinion, it feels less like an angle shoot, more nervous betting from flopping a monster.

Doesnt conventional wisdom say that sloppy betting often indicates a bluff?

 

[MegaTon44]

Doesnt conventional wisdom say that sloppy betting often indicates a bluff?

Not necessarily. Depends on the player. In this case, if the player shows LAG tendencies and also shows bluffs, I'd be more inclined to think a betting mistake would be contrary to his normal actions.

 

[BGinGA]

I guess my main point is that if the guy actually intended to bet 12K with top set (and no hearts) into a checked 2200 pot with three hearts on the board, he's an idiot -- fictitious story or not. Only getting called when behind.

 

[WedgeRock]

I agree. In my opinion, it feels less like an angle shoot, more nervous betting from flopping a monster.

Whether an angle or just a subconscious mistake, I'm putting him on a premium hand and squeezing every dollar out of him with the nuts.

I've been known to mis-bet from time to time and when I realize it, I never say anything -- like I intended to do exactly what I did.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

That's what a call an

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

For comparison a cute angle:

 

[bergs]

I guess my main point is that if the guy actually intended to bet 12K with top set (and no hearts) into a checked 2200 pot with three hearts on the board, he's an idiot -- fictitious story or not. Only getting called when behind.

Doesn't mean it wasn't an angle attempt, which was OP's original question.

 

[BGinGA]

Angle attempts usually have a perceived upside.

 

[QuiQuog]

Probably nothing more than a mistake, but if it was intentional I still wouldn't call it an angle shoot. It's nothing more than a variation of telegraphing the "weak means strong/strong means weak" thing.

 

[bergs]

Angle attempts usually have a perceived upside.

Angleshooter thought he was ahead with top set. It's not like he did it with pocket 4s.

Angleshooter' move is like going over to a friends house and combining your cash set with his, and when you rack up at the end of the night trying to leave all the spinners only to find that you took chips that are more worn than yours. Their intent was still to defraud, but it didn't work out. Doesn't make it less of an angle.

 

[BGinGA]

Not an angle. Not a sammich, either.

 

[bergs]

Not an angle. Not a sammich, either.

The chip swapping or the verbally declared incorrect raise or both?

 

[guinness]

Hell, I don't even believe players when they say I'm good and they tell the dealer to ship it my way if they're still holding cards.
The "meant to bet xy" thing happens so often in casinos/card rooms that to decide if it's an angle or not really comes down to history. Some people do it often like our asshole friend here:

A personal favorite (where my avatar comes from):

 

[Chicken Rob]

Angleshooter thought he was ahead with top set. It's not like he did it with pocket 4s.

Angleshooter' move is like going over to a friends house and combining your cash set with his, and when you rack up at the end of the night trying to leave all the spinners only to find that you took chips that are more worn than yours. Their intent was still to defraud, but it didn't work out. Doesn't make it less of an angle.

What you describe isn't an angle shoot, it's a description of a straight ahead shitbag intentionally fucking someone over.