Two questions from a SOHE hand (1 Viewer)

[AlPresidente]

Interesting. Given we're AIPF, AA in the HE hand is obviously better. Getting it all in pot-limit, 700 BB deep is clearly super unusual though. My reasoning that making AA the HE is obvious is flawed because it's results based. Shallow, I think AA for HE must be right but this deep I have no clue.

 

[AlPresidente]

Wondering about 33 for the HE hand hoping to see a cheap flop. Gives us a 3-card PLO hand with top pair and a NFD.
94o for HE seems bad to me - pretty hard to bink 2 pair and even if we do it's vulnerable or already behind. Seems to me it makes hitting a flop with scooping potential almost impossible.

 

[ssanel54]

One point being missed in this thread is that you are not playing against random hands. You are playing against 2 of 6 cards that were strategically selected pre flop as a holdem hand. AA is still premium, but cracking them is Much easier. Its also a lot more likely that someone else will have AA, and you'll get quartered at best. I prefer to put my eggs in the Omaha side, because I will have a much better sense of where I am after the flop.

It really doesn't matter which way OP sorted his hands, I think the mistake was in the betting.

 

[DrStrange]

I'd need to have a lot of data to accept the premise that pocket aces as a hold'em hand are suffering a significant reduction in equity in this situation.

We see some advocates for making a good Omaha hand and playing 94 as the hold'em hand.
We also see some wanting to play 33. {33 has ~20% equity and is much better than 94's equity but no one is likely fist pumping.}
I wonder if folks would rather play 78s in holdem or 78s as part of an Omaha hand?
I suspect a lot of holdem hands look like a big ace or broadway cards?

I am much more concerned with getting to the flop and having a big chunk of my stack still uncommitted. This situation is going to be a one-way hand in a pot where hero is having to guess what to do with a one-pair hand and big bets coming.

DrStrange

 

[onerand]

Bergs is not folding after bumping up to $150, first or last hand of the night. Your hand is going to be weak on one side no matter how you split it.

AA and (random x 4) is preferable to (random x 2) and AAxxds. You have a much better chance of scooping/not getting scooped with the first setup than the second.

Chicken and his stack can be disregarded due to much larger side pot, but the above applies no matter how many opponents.

 

[AlPresidente]

The fact that we almost always have a huge proportion of our stack behind is why I'm wondering about 33 for HE. 1/8 the time we flop a set and (almost) have 1/2 the pot locked up & our omaha hand gives us chances to scoop. & if we miss, we have an easy fold with negligible damage done.
With AA for HE, it's much harder to know where you are and 9433ss almost never flops hard enough to feel comfortable.
I think with 33 for HE it's far harder for us to make big mistakes and that that's probably the most important think this deep.
[usual I have no idea what I'm talking about disclaimer applies]

 

[bergs]

A set of aces isn't a locked hand. Nut flush usually is. If you can lock one side of the SOHE hand up you can put a lot of pressure on villains and scoop when they fold, which maximizes your equity because most SOHE hands that go to showdown are chopped. I think the best strategy for SOHE is to handset so that you maximize your opportunity to lock either side of your hand and avoid situations where you have things like 3rd nut hands on both sides (where you lose the maximum in multi-way pots).

 

[snooptodd]

It really doesn't matter which way OP sorted his hands, I think the mistake was in the betting.

Yeah, the more I think about it, it's this x 1000. Legitimate cases can be made for splitting this hand at least three ways, but the only way you can think about jamming pre is if you have pocket aces in Hold'em. And I think you can probably make the case for jamming pre if split that way against these two particular players on the last hand of the night, but probably not many other situations.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Bergs is not folding after bumping up to $150, first or last hand of the night. Your hand is going to be weak on one side no matter how you split it.

AA and (random x 4) is preferable to (random x 2) and AAxxds. You have a much better chance of scooping/not getting scooped with the first setup than the second.

Chicken and his stack can be disregarded due to much larger side pot, but the above applies no matter how many opponents.

I love that my >$200 stack in a .25/.50 game can be disregarded as insignificant.

 

[DrStrange]

I'm thinking a "short" stack might have a sizable advantage in this game since it only has one decision - fold preflop or expect to be all in.

DrStrange

 

[Chicken Rob]

Our games, even on our initial buy ins, usually play all 4 streets. AIPF is usually a danger more towards the late night/deeply stuck end of things. In this hand, it was the last hand and berg and I were both stuck. The danger of AIPF was in the air for sure.

 

[AlPresidente]

Question regarding the mechanics of SOHE. Does everyone split their hands before action starts or do you split when it's your first turn to act?

 

[snooptodd]

Question regarding the mechanics of SOHE. Does everyone split their hands before action starts or do you split when it's your first turn to act?

I was confused on this as well, despite the fact that I've played SOHE with this group at least 3-4 times. I thought (and I'm pretty sure I've seen people other than bergs and Chicken do this) you could split your hand right up until the flop was dealt. I'd originally split my hand as listed, then asked if I could rearrange my hand after everyone was all in. The answer was no, and I understand why -- and it's for hands exactly like this.

Generally people split their hand, then complete their first betting action, and that's the way it's intended to be played. From the best of my recollection, the times people have split hands post betting/pre-flop it's because they hadn't actually split their hands yet, not because they were making changes to the way they were split. When that has happened, I don't think people have been angling anyone, rather it's been because it's late, they're drunk, etc.

 

[k9dr]

Question regarding the mechanics of SOHE. Does everyone split their hands before action starts or do you split when it's your first turn to act?

Unless you're playing Australian rules SOHE Then you split after the flop.

 

[gopherblue]

I'm a stickler for when you split and how you split, having been involved in a game with a cheating, All-Sweat-Everything™-wearing mamaluke scumbag, who underhandedly reordered his cards post-flop all night long until I called him on it.

My view is that all cards should be sorted into HE and Omaha hands (with card protectors and plenty of table separation) PRIOR to any PF betting by any player. But more often than not, this rule is bent slightly and folks allow separating hands until it is your turn to act PF. My personal view is that this is still an edge (and maybe even an angle, depending on intent), since you have information about how others are betting prior to your getting "locked in" to your hands on your action.

But I'm not bitter. I still love playing SOHE, I'm just jaded.

 

[jbutler]

I'm thinking a "short" stack might have a sizable advantage in this game since it only has one decision - fold preflop or expect to be all in.

probably true to a degree, but honestly as loose as this game plays, the looseness is 95% on the flop. the perceived looseness preflop really only serves the purpose of making the game play properly according to stack rather than blind structure.

as many have said, each game finds its own equilibrium as to stakes. after an hour of play in the .25/.50 game at meet-ups, you may find one token sub-$200 stack. the preflop betting serves to make the game play more as a $1/2 (closer to $1/3 or $5/0 game late night). but even those "raised" stakes in SOHE very, very rarely lead to an all-in preflop.

imo you'd have a hard time getting stacks in preflop more than once every few hours. if you bought for $60 (i think that's the min at berg's game, though i can only recall one person having ever bought for that amount), you could probably get it in pre within the first 2 hours of play, but remember also that it's a rotation game, so it would take a while to get to SOHE, since the rotation is 2-3-4-5-6 (NL, pineapple, PLO, Big O, SOHE).

plus, if you're able to play the short stack effectively (i.e., have the skill and are able to exert sufficient self-control while playing with this group), you likely have a much, much, much, much (i could go on...) higher edge buying in for the max and just playing well against other deep stacks.

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My view is that all cards should be sorted into HE and Omaha hands (with card protectors and plenty of table separation) PRIOR to any PF betting by any player. But more often than not, this rule is bent slightly and folks allow separating hands until it is your turn to act PF. My personal view is that this is still an edge (and maybe even an angle, depending on intent), since you have information about how others are betting prior to your getting "locked in" to your hands on your action.

i agree with this. the rule as i have always understood it is that you have to have your hand split before you act preflop. i don't know that there is enough organization within the game to actually enforce the requirement that everyone's hand be split before anyone acts, though i'd be in favor if it were reasonable to do so. certainly without a doubt a hand cannot be rearranged after the money goes in preflop.

 

[guinness]

Unless you're playing Australian rules SOHE Then you split after the flop.

No. Absolutely not. You split preflop. You split pre-betting, pre-flop.

Edit: I speak for New England play, which I believe originated in Bergs basement, care of Abby.

 

[k9dr]

I may be wrong, but I thought BC had a version we played at DCS where we split post flop.

 

[Chicken Rob]

K9 is right. Australian rules: split after flop.

This is how australian rules plays out:

Hand 1: 7 players see flop. someone pots the flop. All fold.
Hand 2: 7 players see flop. someone pots the flop. All fold.
Hand 3: 7 players see flop. someone pots the flop. All fold.
Hand 4: 7 players see flop. someone pots the flop. 4 way all in.

repeat on 4 hand cycle for the rest of the night.

 

[xt!]

I can't believe you degenerates play pl instead of nl.

 

[bergs]

We tried NL, it was sorta action killing. Jam on every flop, folds around.

 

[abby99]

I can't believe you degenerates play pl instead of nl.

We tried NL, it was sorta action killing. Jam on every flop, folds around.

Yeah, it's similar to the difference between putting a frog in cold water and setting the pot on the burner, and dropping the frog into hot water. I suspect that's why PL games play bigger than NL games.

 

[xt!]

That's what I meant... that is some degenerate shit if played pot limit. I've only played it no limit. Sickos.

 

[xt!]

Back to op though... best strategy thread ever btw... If I know the players well enough I consider not only nfd possibilities on the plo side, but the nut blockers if I have them on the nl side. (Bluffing a dry ace theory) if I don't know the players well (or i think they are mouth breathers) than it isn't much of a consideration.

End of the day, I lean heavily toward putting the aces on the nl side and set mining the little pair. if I flop a 3 I am getting every chip I own in the middle and I'm asking if I can write a check for more chips.

 

[bergs]

Back to op though... best strategy thread ever btw... If I know the players well enough I consider not only nfd possibilities on the plo side, but the nut blockers if I have them on the nl side. (Bluffing a dry ace theory) if I don't know the players well (or i think they are mouth breathers) than it isn't much of a consideration.

End of the day, I lean heavily toward putting the aces on the nl side and set mining the little pair. if I flop a 3 I am getting every chip I own in the middle and I'm asking if I can write a check for more chips.

...(deleted, duplicate comment)

 

[bergs]

Back to op though... best strategy thread ever btw... If I know the players well enough I consider not only nfd possibilities on the plo side, but the nut blockers if I have them on the nl side. (Bluffing a dry ace theory) if I don't know the players well (or i think they are mouth breathers) than it isn't much of a consideration.

End of the day, I lean heavily toward putting the aces on the nl side and set mining the little pair. if I flop a 3 I am getting every chip I own in the middle and I'm asking if I can write a check for more chips.

I did this once. Flopped my bottom set on the PLO side. Had my aces on the NL side. Got it all in at 11:30p at Guinness'. Lost to a straight on the PLO side and a set on the NL side. Passed out with the dog on the floor at 11:35p.

Bottom set in this game will kill you stone dead. Top set will kill you too, but sometimes the board pairs and you enjoy a boat over boat resurrection.

 

[BGinGA]

To ask the inverse question, what is the ~worst~ possible way to split Ah Ad 9d 4s 3d 3h ? Ad 3h for hold'em and Ah 9d 4s 3d for Omaha?

 

[AlPresidente]

Ad3h/ah9d4s3d looks pretty terrible.