Tourney Tournament Structure Elements that Impact Rebuys (1 Viewer)

[grantc54]

Hello,

Just a warning, this is a long post. I run a fair amount of tournaments with a tournament every week, 2 table tournaments quarterly and a multi-table annually. I like to study how different elements of structure affect game play to find the perfect mix. I have played around with rebuys, bountys, shoot-out, antes, etc.

Recently I've been playing with our tournament structure with alternate starting stacks for our weekly rebuy tournament. Our original starting stack was T4,000 with 20 minutes levels starting at 25/50. In all honestly I was trying to raise that in order to get some new high denom plaques I purchased into play (which players love) and to try out some new things. Our weekly game normally has between 7-9 players (sometimes 6 or 10).

I have tried starting stacks of T10k, T30k, T50k, and T75k.

I would like to standardize on T10k starting stacks, but in order to facilitate this we had to reduce the blind levels to 15 minutes in order to start at 25/50 (to get a little deep stack play in).

In order to attract people of different financial means we have kept the weekly tournament at a $20 buy-in with a single (and sometimes multi) rebuy. The rebuy really helps build up the prize pool and on average we usually have a 50-60% increase in prize pool due to the rebuys.

This is where the problem lies. When I raised the starting stack to T10K the rebuys dried up (I was the only rebuy as I am a degenerate and will rebuy no matter how many BB this leaves me). This is very abnormal for us.

I suspect this is because many of my players are calling stations and the T10K stack combined with the 15 minute blinds allowed people to stay around until it didn't make sense to rebuy (BB at 1500, so rebuy stack is lower than 7BB).

This is my thoughts on remedying this:
1) Remove the T25 chips and therefore the 25/50 and 75/150 levels allowing me to increase blind levels back to 20 minutes. Having longer blind levels allows the calling stations more time to lose their money at a lower level.

Cons: the steps between levels are steeper and having the super deep starting level is nice

2) Keep the T25 chips and earlier levels but gradually decrease the blind level times

Cons: inconsistent blind levels don't seem as elegant. We do use Tournament Director, so the computer will keep things together.

FYI, the target run-time for the tournament is 4-4.5 hrs.

Any and all feedback/thoughts are welcome!

Here are the levels used with a T10K starting stack that resulted in no rebuys:

Round Time

1 00:15 25 50
2 00:15 50 100
3 00:15 75 150
4 00:15 100 200
5 00:15 150 300

00:05 Break 1
6 00:15 200 400
6 00:15 300 600
7 00:15 400 800
7 00:15 600 1200
8 00:15 800 1600

00:05 Break 2
9 00:15 1000 2000
10 00:15 1500 3000
11 00:15 2000 4000
12 00:15 3000 6000

 

[Trihonda]

I think a tourney structure that prevents the numerous rebuys is a good thing. It means people are allowed to play poker. That said, if you're looking to increase the prize pool, try a secondary prize pool instead. Allow those who want. To play for more.

 

[grantc54]

I think a tourney structure that prevents the numerous rebuys is a good thing. It means people are allowed to play poker. That said, if you're looking to increase the prize pool, try a secondary prize pool instead. Allow those who want. To play for more.

Interesting. How would a seconday prize pool work? It seems like it would be a pain to track/manage (I don't think Tournament Director has anything for that).

 

[Blaster]

If your tourn is now $20, "with a single (and sometimes multi) rebuy...." , ( which seems to mean most players will arrive with an expectation of spending $40-60), consider leaving it at your new schedule, but upping the buy-in to between $30-35-40, or so. You will have your higher prize pool, & at the new occasional zero-to-2 rebuys, it's still within everyone's price range ....

 

[grantc54]

If your tourn is now $20, "with a single (and sometimes multi) rebuy...." , ( which seems to mean most players will arrive with an expectation of spending $40-60), consider leaving it at your new schedule, but upping the buy-in to between $30-35-40, or so. You will have your higher prize pool, & at the new occasional zero-to-2 rebuys, it's still within everyone's price range ....

You would think it wouldn't be a problem to up the buy in (it is Canadian $$ too!) considering we've been playing for 15+ years at $20 BUT I still get push back. I can't relate to not being able to buy in for more but to me having a regular weekly game with enough people to play is more important that the difference in money.

But I do acknowledge you have a very good point.

Grant

 

[Trihonda]

Interesting. How would a seconday prize pool work? It seems like it would be a pain to track/manage (I don't think Tournament Director has anything for that).

Secondary prize pool is easy easy easy! Just do a $20 normal entry. Then do a secondary $20 pool. It's as easy having a sign up sheet, and have a standard payout spreadsheet for the secondary pool, based on participants.. If 6 players enter, it pays top two, or some such. $80/$40 (for example).

Allows people to play for bigger stakes, and keeps original buyins low for the squeamish.

 

[BGinGA]

^^ We occasionally run non-league tournaments that way. It also creates some additional/artificial changes to strategy..... by essentially creating a secondary money bubble. Astute players will know who's in the side pool and who isn't, and will play versus those players accordingly in certain spots in order to exploit the secondary money considerations, depending on specific circumstances.

Not that it's a bad thing, adding an extra layer of strategic thinking....

We also apply the same 'play for more if you desire' concept to bounty chips, with a extra optional 'super-bounty' worth twice as much as the standard bounty chip, which can only be collected by those players who choose to participate.

Depending on the crowd, we usually get around a 50% participation rate in the secondary prize pool. Super-bounty usually runs about 75% participation on average.

 

[SwampYankee]

We also apply the same 'play for more if you desire' concept to bounty chips, with a extra optional 'super-bounty' worth twice as much as the standard bounty chip, which can only be collected by those players who choose to participate.

Depending on the crowd, we usually get around a 50% participation rate in the secondary prize pool. Super-bounty usually runs about 75% participation on average

No hurry, but when you get a chance can you elaborate a bunch on this topic. I have no clue about how bounties work.

 

[BGinGA]

No hurry, but when you get a chance can you elaborate a bunch on this topic. I have no clue about how bounties work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(poker)

 

[grantc54]

I appreciate the feedback. Since these are single table games I'm not sure how people doing the min buy-in would react to having others buy-in for more. I will make some structure tweaks to see how it effects rebuys and use individual last longer bets to get more $$ in. The post game $1 per point OFC a couple of us play tends to bring a lot more action than the main tournament and I may need to stick to that to get more significant money on the table.

Grant

 

[BGinGA]

Since these are single table games I'm not sure how people doing the min buy-in would react to having others buy-in for more.

Table size has nothing to do with it, and who cares how they react? There's nothing to react to. Pay whichever entry you want. What others are paying has no bearing on those who choose the lesser amount. Everybody starts with the same amount of chips.

For example, in a single table of eight players:

If half the players want to stick to their old $20 entry, that works out to 8 x 20 = $160 in the main pool, the same as always. For argument's sake let's assume you're paying three places 55/30/15, so 1st=90 2nd=45 3rd=25 (or whatever). All eight players contributed to this pool, and all eight are eligible to win the prize money in this pool (same as always).

The other half (4 players) want to play for more, so they pay $40 entry -- which is diverted $20 to the main pool (above) and $20 to the secondary pool, which works out to 4 x 20 = $80 in the secondary pool, paying 1st=60 2nd=20 (or whatever). Note that those payouts go to the highest and 2nd-highest finishers among the four eligible players (not necessarily actual 1st and 2nd places). The players who only paid $20 entry are not eligible for winning any money in this prize pool, because they did not contribute to it.

Players who contributed to both prize pools (main and secondary) can win the prize money in each.


Re-buys would be $20 for those who initially paid $20 (going to the main pool), and re-buys for those in the secondary pool are $40 -- with $20 going to the main pool, and $20 going to the secondary pool).

 

[Mojo1312]

You have multiple goals that you would like to achieve. You would like to have deep stack play, bigger prize pools, and you want to put your higher denominational plaques in play. I don't know how you can achieve the latter two without sacrificing deep stack play.

One possible solution is eliminating the 25/50 level and allowing players to add-on after a defined re-buy period:

$20 buy-in / 10K starting stack.
$10 add-on for an additional 10K in chips open to all players at the end of the re-buy period.

18 minute levels:

50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300

15 minute break
End of re-buys
Player add-ons

200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600

10 minute break

1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000

8 players, 4 re-buys and 8 add-ons puts 200,000 chips in play, which means the tournament should end within the 4.5 hour time frame. (Prize pool: $320)

Longer rounds and smaller starting stacks should result in player re-buys. Add-ons will also increase the prize pool and will allow you and the others to play a little deeper while getting those plaques out onto the table.

 

[grantc54]

Thank you for all the feedback. After a little more experimentation and the realization going for rebuys doesn't make for as fun a game I ended up with a T25K starting stack, 100/200 starting level, 16-20 minute levels, and $5 bounties.

Not as many rebuys as the T4k starting but mote play and the $5 bounty helps add a little more to the prize pool.

Grant