Tom Brady isn't the GOAT (1 Viewer)

[Tarheel4Life]

I tried to look at this statistically and use 4th quarter comebacks as the measuring stick for the guy you’d want under center with the game on the line, but it doesn’t take into account several factors:

1) Scoring has changed a lot in the NFL obviously over the years - its eaiser to go down the field 80 yards in 60 seconds now then 20 years ago when guys could really hit the QB, PI wasn’t called as much, etc.

2) This doesn’t into account how often a team has blown a lead (which may be the defense’s fault and not reflective on the QB) and how often an offense has hung onto the ball with a lead (arguably as important as 4th quarter comeback).

3) Bad teams will be down typically more than very very good teams - so I wouldn’t really expect a Montana led team to lead in 4th quarter comebacks per year.

4) I couldn’t easily find how frequently a QB converted 4th quarter comeback opportunities - that % may be way more relevant.

That said, ladies and gentlemen, Matthew Stafford is the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL.

PS Matt Ryan is 4th in this list but MY GOD is that guy a choke artist. He’s the Michelangelo of choking.

 

[Tarheel4Life]

My top 10 NBA players of all time are probably (in no particular order)

MJ & LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Oscar Robertson or Wilt

Then it's (in no particular order)
David Robinson
Stockton
Isaiah Thomas
Pippen
Karl Malone
Giannis
Garnett
Dr J
Barkley
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Bill Russell
Elgin Baylor
Gary Payton
Wade
Kidd

I disagree with a couple of these but it’s probably the most similar list I’ve seen to how I rank them. I think it’s more interesting by position though (that is, until everyone in the NBA became a swing 3)

 

[RainmanTrail]

I tried to look at this statistically and use 4th quarter comebacks as the measuring stick for the guy you’d want under center with the game on the line, but it doesn’t take into account several factors:

1) Scoring has changed a lot in the NFL obviously over the years - its eaiser to go down the field 80 yards in 60 seconds now then 20 years ago when guys could really hit the QB, PI wasn’t called as much, etc.

2) This doesn’t into account how often a team has blown a lead (which may be the defense’s fault and not reflective on the QB) and how often an offense has hung onto the ball with a lead (arguably as important as 4th quarter comeback).

3) Bad teams will be down typically more than very very good teams - so I wouldn’t really expect a Montana led team to lead in 4th quarter comebacks per year.

4) I couldn’t easily find how frequently a QB converted 4th quarter comeback opportunities - that % may be way more relevant.

That said, ladies and gentlemen, Matthew Stafford is the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL.

PS Matt Ryan is 4th in this list but MY GOD is that guy a choke artist. He’s the Michelangelo of choking.

This should also be weighted by opportunities, or win pct as a surrogate if not. Stafford tops the list because he was always behind. For Wilson to be as high as he is AND be one of the winningest QBs of all time definitely says something special.

 

[RainmanTrail]

So then what is everyone's thoughts on GOAT WR and RB?

I may be biased with Rice as WR GOAT. But RB GOAT I don't think is clear... Payton maybe.

RB - Jim Brown > Barry Sanders > Walter Payton
WR - Jerry Rice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy Moss > everyone else

 

[pltrgyst]

"Mikan was so dominant that he prompted several rule changes in the NBA: among them, the introduction of the goaltending rule, the widening of the foul lane—known as the "Mikan Rule"—and the creation of the shot clock."

Mikan's widening was much earlier, from 6 to 12 feet. Can you even imagine a lane only six feet wide?

 

[Perthmike]

My top 10 NBA players of all time are probably (in no particular order)

MJ & LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Oscar Robertson or Wilt

Then it's (in no particular order)
David Robinson
Stockton
Isaiah Thomas
Pippen
Karl Malone
Giannis
Garnett
Dr J
Barkley
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Bill Russell
Elgin Baylor
Gary Payton
Wade
Kidd
Curry
Kawhi

Wait, no Jackie Moon?

 

[pltrgyst]

My top 10 NBA players of all time are probably (in no particular order)

MJ & LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Oscar Robertson or Wilt

Good shot at it, but I'd say you *greatly* undervalue Oscar, Wilt, Russell, and West.

And way overvalue Olajawon, Duncan, and Shaq. Wilt would have eaten all three for lunch...

 

[ssanel54]

Again, no love for Russell Wilson? Is there any QB in the last decade with more 4th quarter come back wins or game winning drives than Russell Wilson? I don't think there is. I might be wrong, but I believe he dominates that category if this is what's most important to you.

You are right here. Wilson is definitely the most under the radar QB of the last decade but he is stuck in a weird spot between the ushering out of the old guard Brady/Brees/Rivers and the ushering in of the new regime Mahomes/Jackson. The NFL for whatever reason put their face on a number sub par QBS during the bridge and passed over Wilson.

Im curious, as a Seahawks fan, how much of Wilsons slight do you think is a result of the lost Superbowl and subsequent locker room drama?

 

[Chester Copperpot]

When it comes to Jordan vs LeBron, one has won NBA defensive player of the year, and one hasn’t.

 

[ssanel54]

Also, the numerous cheating scandals of the Patriots over the years somehow seem to be far too easily overlooked. This stuff matters. And I'm sure all of their cheating scandals didn't even come to light. It's clear that if there was a way for them to gain an edge, fairly or unfairly, they were going to take it.

Somehow, guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens had their entire careers discredited, and the public wants to strip the Astros of their titles for reading a few pitching signs at opportune moments. But the Patriots repeatedly spying on their opponents to know which plays they are running, and deflating footballs in cold weather so that they're easier to catch (no way that was the first time either), and somehow it's just sour grapes for everyone that's not a Pats fan when they hoist a trophy? Sorry. But that shit matters.

This is where you really lose the argument IMO, and come across as just a straightforward Patriot hater. You're arguing that since the Patriots had a higher degree of success than any other team, that it must have been attributed to the numerous cheating offenses, therefore Brady is not the Goat. Peyton Manning should be considered the goat because he had better stats over his career, but that level of success definitely was not influenced in any way by artificially inflated crowd noise, illegal communication devices or HGH. Either these things matter or they don't? Your GOAT WR admitted to using illegal adhesives on his gloves, does that change your opinion of his accomplishments?

 

[Lucks7Shadow]

I’m a New England fan and now also TB fan bc I loved Brady/gronk. But I don’t follow football enough to know all the stats and such, I’m just a biased amateur fan, but I still thought not being top 5 is absurd

Thought it was perfect timing I saw this thread and also this post on reddit yesterday.

 

[Tarheel4Life]

Good shot at it, but I'd say you *greatly* undervalue Oscar, Wilt, Russell, and West.

And way overvalue Olajawon, Duncan, and Shaq. Wilt would have eaten all three for lunch...

West was so good that he’s literally the NBA logo. Robertson was the king of the triple double. Wilt scored 100 points in a single game and was the hardest person to guard and the hardest person to score on in his era.

 

[pltrgyst]

Thought it was perfect timing I saw this thread and also this post on reddit yesterday.

That definitely shows how the NFL has changed from a running league to a passing league -- and why this whole stats-based discussion is pointless.

 

[pltrgyst]

That definitely shows how the NFL has changed from a running league to a passing league -- and why this whole stats-based discussion is pointless.

BTW, the same applies to basketball before and after adoption of the three-point shot. Completely different game...

 

[pltrgyst]

I agree with the first for the most part. If we are gonna discuss skill set, I think it brings other QBs into the GOAT convo. I’d say that Peyton might arguably be the most intelligent QB to ever pick up a football.

Frank Ryan, Ph.D. Mathematics, might disagree.

 

[RainmanTrail]

When it comes to Jordan vs LeBron, one has won NBA defensive player of the year, and one hasn’t.

Ya, and one has led the league in assists, the other has not. We can play this game all day long if you want. They're different players. But LeBron is no slouch on defense. He's an elite defender.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Johnny Unitas

/endthread

 

[RainmanTrail]

Good shot at it, but I'd say you *greatly* undervalue Oscar, Wilt, Russell, and West.

And way overvalue Olajawon, Duncan, and Shaq. Wilt would have eaten all three for lunch...

Wilt couldn't even eat Bill Russell's lunch, and Russell couldn't even score against guys like me. I'm a 6'0 white guy who played varsity basketball in high school, which means I literally could have played in the NBA back then. Watching Wilt score 100 points against me and my friends tells you nothing about how he would fare against someone like Shaq. He may have been as good as Shaq. He was certainly a freak athlete, but the truth is we'll never truly know how good he was because the competition back then was a joke. Shaq completely dominated against actual talent. If you think inserting a guy like Shaq into the 1960s game doesn't amount to complete and total domination like Wilt displayed, then I don't know what else to say. Wilt might have been Shaq v1.0. He also might have just been any other good player in an era where nearly everyone else sucked. We'll never know, and watching old tapes (which I've done) isn't going to tell us much. I tend to think he was probably similar to Shaq v1.0, but one thing I can say with certainty is that Shaq playing in the 1960s equates to domination on a level we've never seen before other than maybe Wilt. But putting Wilt into the 2000s equates to a big question mark.

 

[RainmanTrail]

You're arguing that since the Patriots had a higher degree of success than any other team, that it must have been attributed to the numerous cheating offenses, therefore Brady is not the Goat.

That's not what I said. I'm arguing that their repeated cheating scandals matter, and that it hurts his argument for GOAT status. I don't really see that as disputable or controversial.

 

[pacmartine]

LeBron single-handedly came back from a 3-1 deficit in the NBA Finals to beat one of the greatest teams in NBA history (the Warriors in their true prime, the season they went 73-9). He literally beat them BY HIMSELF. Kyrie Irving was out, and so was Kevin Love. It was ALL LeBron. No other athlete in any other team sport has done something similar that I'm aware of.

Also, Dennis Rodman wasn't just some headcase. He was and still is regarded by many as the greatest defensive player who ever lived (a separate debate obviously, but he's definitely in the conversation at least). He could shut down anyone and everyone, regardless of the position. He's a huge part of why the Pistons won when they did too. As for Scottie Pippen not having success outside of Jordan, the Bulls were 57-25 in 1993 when they won their 3rd title with Jordan and Pippen. The next year, Jordan retires, and they went 55-27. That's only 2 fewer wins after losing Michael Jordan! Pippen also led the league in steals that year. Pippen was very underrated. He truly was one of the all-time greats.

Here are the Bulls records during the Jordan-Pippen era:
1984 38-44 - Jordan
1985 9-9 - Jordan (injured)
1986 40-42 - Jordan
1987 50-32 - Jordan + Pippen
1988 47-35 - Jordan + Pippen
1989 55-27 - Jordan + Pippen
1990 61-21 - Jordan + Pippen
1991 67-15 - Jordan + Pippen
1992 57-25 - Jordan + Pippen
1993 55-27 - Pippen
1994 33-31 - Pippen
1994 13-4 - Jordan + Pippen
1995 72-10 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1996 69-13 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1997 62-20 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1998 13-37 - All 3 players left

Combine those together and you get
203-43 = 82.5% win rate w/ Jordan+Pippen+Rodman
350-159 = 68.8% win rate w/ Jordan+Pippen
87-95 = 47.8% win rate w/ Jordan only
88-58 = 60.3% win rate w/ Pippen only

You just leave Horace Grant out of that equation??? It wasn’t just Pippen. Pippen’s rookie season he averaged less than 8 points a game and came off the bench and the Bulls went 50-32. The 60-20 last championship season Pippen was out more than half the year waiting until the season started to get surgery.

Did you say with a straight face Lebron beat the warriors by himself? 41,23, 26 and the finals game winner was what Kyrie contributed those last three games of the finals. Lebron was Hurculean but he doesn’t win without Kyrie (and Draymond getting suspended).

 

[ssanel54]

That's not what I said. I'm arguing that their repeated cheating scandals matter, and that it hurts his argument for GOAT status. I don't really see that as disputable or controversial.

But what you are not saying is if that only applies to the patriots and Brady, or if the same type of cheating scandals equally affect others in the conversation like Manning or Rice?

 

[Chester Copperpot]

Ya, and one has led the league in assists, the other has not. We can play this game all day long if you want. They're different players. But LeBron is no slouch on defense. He's an elite defender.

I missed where I said I think LeBron is a slouch defender.

Leading the league in assists as a point forward who always has the ball in his hands and attracting tremendous defensive pressure is a nice accomplishment, but let’s not forget he had Danny Green out there to knock down all the open 3s LeBron tossed his way.

Or, more likely, dumping off to Anthony Davis ... but I prefer the Danny Green narrative.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I missed where I said I think LeBron is a slouch defender.

Leading the league in assists as a point forward who always has the ball in his hands and attracting tremendous defensive pressure is a nice accomplishment, but let’s not forget he had Danny Green out there to knock down all the open 3s LeBron tossed his way.

Or, more likely, dumping off to Anthony Davis ... but I prefer the Danny Green narrative.

I know everything can't be directly compared but this was my thought when trying to compare those two specifics.

MJ had one (I think?) DPOY and then a bunch of all defensive nods. LeBron never had a DPOY, and less but a couple all defensive nods.

For passing, LeBron by many is thought of as the best passing big of all time. At the very least, he's a generational passing talent, that is easily top whatever.

 

[RainmanTrail]

But what you are not saying is if that only applies to the patriots and Brady, or if the same type of cheating scandals equally affect others in the conversation like Manning or Rice?

I've never heard of any cheating allegations for Manning or Rice before. I'd have to look into them. But if the allegations against Manning are that he used HGH to help him recover after having neck surgery, then that would amount to a nothing burger for me. If he was essentially taking steroids throughout his career though, then that would obviously matter. But then again, I assume I would have heard about it. As for Rice, again, I don't know anything about that. But I do know that all WRs today use sticky gloves, so I'm not sure what the difference would be. I've used those gloves before too, and you can practically just hold one hand up and the ball will stick right to it. Reading up on the allegations could obviously change my mind, but the fact that I've never heard anything about them combined with them coming from a Patriots fan makes me think this is more likely a banal case of "whataboutism" than it is something more concerning. But I'll look into it. Either way, it doesn't discredit the multiple very real and very concerning charges against the Patriots. The Pats would have likely been great either way, but it's a shame that we'll never know just how great they would have been had they not been compelled to gain unfair advantages against their opponents on countless occasions over the years.

Edit: I've read about 5 or 6 stories so far,and every single link comes from a Boston news source or a Patriots fan site. Some of it is even satire. Is there anything out there without a Patriots bias behind these allegations? Lol

 

[krafticus]

You are right here. Wilson is definitely the most under the radar QB of the last decade but he is stuck in a weird spot between the ushering out of the old guard Brady/Brees/Rivers and the ushering in of the new regime Mahomes/Jackson. The NFL for whatever reason put their face on a number sub par QBS during the bridge and passed over Wilson.

Im curious, as a Seahawks fan, how much of Wilsons slight do you think is a result of the lost Superbowl and subsequent locker room drama?

Russell Wilson has never received a single vote for MVP. Weigh that stat as you’d like

 

[RainmanTrail]

Russell Wilson has never received a single vote for MVP. Weigh that stat as you’d like

Yep. Pretty ridiculous media bias there.

 

[espehrson]

I've never heard of any cheating allegations for Manning or Rice before. I'd have to look into them. But if the allegations against Manning are that he used HGH to help him recover after having neck surgery, then that would amount to a nothing burger for me. If he was essentially taking steroids throughout his career though, then that would obviously matter. But then again, I assume I would have heard about it. As for Rice, again, I don't know anything about that. But I do know that all WRs today use sticky gloves, so I'm not sure what the difference would be. I've used those gloves before too, and you can practically just hold one hand up and the ball will stick right to it. Reading up on the allegations could obviously change my mind, but the fact that I've never heard anything about them combined with them coming from a Patriots fan makes me think this is more likely a banal case of "whataboutism" than it is something more concerning. But I'll look into it. Either way, it doesn't discredit the multiple very real and very concerning charges against the Patriots. The Pats would have likely been great either way, but it's a shame that we'll never know just how great they would have been had they not been compelled to gain unfair advantages against their opponents on countless occasions over the years.

Edit: I've read about 5 or 6 stories so far,and every single link comes from a Boston news source or a Patriots fan site. Some of it is even satire. Is there anything out there without a Patriots bias behind these allegations? Lol

Full disclosure, i'm a Patriots fan; however, i'm not a rabid homer who won't admit they cheated (they did). 2nd disclosure, i have no idea if a patriots fan came up with this site (probably, but it looks like they are at least citing the allegations), but i do get a chuckle out of it: https://yourteamcheats.com/cheaters/

that said, i'm the cynic in the room. Every single professional sports team has cheated, is currently cheating, and will cheat in the future. I really don't think that's up for debate.

I love Rice, and he's up there on my all time list of WRs; however, i do think this is pretty funny as well: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...using-illegal-stickum-on-gloves-during-career

The problem with GOAT's, is you really can't measure generation against generation (conditioning, sports nutrition, weights, evolution of the game, etc.). For example (world according to me) Eli Manning was for the most part a league average QB who won two Super Bowls; however, if you look just at the numbers, he looks awesome, because his career coincided with the evolution of the passing game. Can you compare him against Unitas, Starr, or Bradshaw? Sure, buts it's apples to oranges. Should you compare Eli to some of the older greats; nope, i don't think so. Will Eli make the Hall of Fame, probably; should he, no...well...IMHO (which of course counts for absolutely nothing).

Back to Brady. i'd take Brady over Peyton, in GOAT conversation as well as in real games. Brady had better teams, outside of Moss, Peyton had better WRs.

 

[ssanel54]

I've never heard of any cheating allegations for Manning or Rice before. I'd have to look into them. But if the allegations against Manning are that he used HGH to help him recover after having neck surgery, then that would amount to a nothing burger for me. If he was essentially taking steroids throughout his career though, then that would obviously matter. But then again, I assume I would have heard about it. As for Rice, again, I don't know anything about that. But I do know that all WRs today use sticky gloves, so I'm not sure what the difference would be. I've used those gloves before too, and you can practically just hold one hand up and the ball will stick right to it. Reading up on the allegations could obviously change my mind, but the fact that I've never heard anything about them combined with them coming from a Patriots fan makes me think this is more likely a banal case of "whataboutism" than it is something more concerning. But I'll look into it. Either way, it doesn't discredit the multiple very real and very concerning charges against the Patriots. The Pats would have likely been great either way, but it's a shame that we'll never know just how great they would have been had they not been compelled to gain unfair advantages against their opponents on countless occasions over the years.

Edit: I've read about 5 or 6 stories so far,and every single link comes from a Boston news source or a Patriots fan site. Some of it is even satire. Is there anything out there without a Patriots bias behind these allegations? Lol

I wouldn’t really call it an allegation, Rice admitted during an ESPN interview that he used to spray stickem on his gloves, something that was clearly defined as illegal by the NFL.

It was an offensive lineman from Indy that admitted they used illegal hearing devices between QB and O Line.

You may still say meh, but when you talk about the Pats illegally taping opponents, the illegal aspect was that the camera was placed outside of the designated taping area. So you should expect a similar meh response in return.

 

[12thMan]

I just skimmed the thread because I’ve had these kinds of debates thousands of times in my life, but I do want to pop in and give you all the correct answers to EVERYTHING:

1. MJ/Kobe
.
.
.
.
Somewhere under them: Lebron



-Peanut butter should be smoother than silk but orange juice should be so hairy with pulp you need a fork to finish it.


-vanilla is the goat of all


-toilet paper goes OVER, never under

-Snowboarding is best enjoyed right foot forward

-the dress was most certainly blue

-don’t give a crap if it’s a sandwich or not just give me one off a roller

And finally:

1. John Elway
2. Doesn’t matter, see above







But seriously, don’t sleep on Russell Wilson. He does some pretty beastly things every once in a while.

 

[legend672]

Never heard of him. The football GOAT is either Pelé or Messi. Some people claim Christina Ronaldo (not a typo), although I feel that to be a GOAT you can't take dives as frequently as he does.

Or are you perhaps referring to this padded version of rugby where the players stand around discussing tactics for 3 hours?

pele was cool on the opening of wide world of sports tv show