Tom Brady isn't the GOAT (1 Viewer)

[BarrieJ3]

Stats, schmats. Wilt Chamberlain changed the rules of the game -- literally:

"Men's professional basketball in the United States (the National Basketball Association) widened it further to 16 feet (4.9 m) in the 1964–65 NBA season to reduce the effectiveness of dominant centers, especially Wilt Chamberlain."

"Mikan was so dominant that he prompted several rule changes in the NBA: among them, the introduction of the goaltending rule, the widening of the foul lane—known as the "Mikan Rule"—and the creation of the shot clock."

 

[ssanel54]

I agree with the first for the most part. If we are gonna discuss skill set, I think it brings other QBs into the GOAT convo. I’d say that Peyton might arguably be the most intelligent QB to ever pick up a football.

Yeah, if winning games that matter is not the barometer of success, I think it opens the door for a lot of other QBs to enter the discussion, primarily those who can also run the football.

I still have a hard time ranking Manning ahead of Marino, Elway or Kelley on any list given they also played when QBs could be hit.

 

[RainmanTrail]

It was his smarts, his clutch performances over and over, his ability to get all this done with concrete shoes on (he could never rely on his legs to get him out of situations).

Or perhaps it was those extra 30 seconds of pass protection he had on nearly every play because of his offensive line? In all seriousness though, go watch a Seahawks game and just imagine TB being behind that line instead of Russel Wilson. TB gets sacked probably 15 times per game.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you definitely have something against Tom. You never once mentioned how Tom most of his career had zero stability on offense in terms of receivers but the two years he got to throw to Moss you make a blatant point to emphasize it. No, Moss did not deserve MVP, Brady did. Moss broke the TD record because of Tom, otherwise he'd have done it every other year of his career. Also Manning had Marvin Harrison for his whole career when he played for the Colts. When he went to Denver he had Emmanuel Sanders and Demaryius Thomas in their prime. If your going to throw shade on one guy, do it to the other too. Keep your argument objective at least.

Valid arguments. I'll bump TB up on my list to #6 now. Just trying to figure out who to replace for him though... Hmm

They have stupid talent at every position of offense. Mahomes is incredible, but if people want to argue that TB12 is only good because of New England, than im just going to make the argument that Mahomes is only good because he has a stacked Oline, insane receivers, a league best TE, and a top 3 head coach.

Mahomes is great. How great though, we probably won't know until he's behind a shit o line like Russell Wilson is.

Think Lamar would give up his MVP for a playoff win? I bet he would.

LOL, no. Hell no. A super bowl win, yes. But just a one and done playoff victory? No one is giving up an MVP trophy for that. Especially Lamar Jackson.

Well all you youngsters never saw Bart Starr. Sad that you never did.

Never saw Johnny Unitus play either. I hear they were great though. Probably both better than TB.

 

[RainmanTrail]

If this is the basis for your argument, why Kareem and not Bill Russell?

You must be from Boston. Russell vs Kareem isn't even close.

 

[shorticus]

I still have a hard time ranking Manning ahead of Marino, Elway or Kelley on any list given they also played when QBs could be hit.

This is the reason you can’t compare eras, and also the reason why winning imo has to carry the most weight if you do.

You can’t touch WRs now so QBs will naturally see more success, and that’s also why we are seeing the successful small speedy guys like Reek and Brandin Cooks. Not to mention, WRs can go over the middle without fear of life changing circumstances. All of that inflates numbers and will make the conversation that tougher going forward.

 

[ssanel54]

You must be from Boston. Russell vs Kareem isn't even close.

I grew up in the Bird/Magic era, so you don’t need to convince me about Kareem. But in your analogy Kareem doesn’t seem to fit as the Brady comparison. Russell would be Brady, and Kareem would be Peyton, Elway, or whoever.

 

[RainmanTrail]

And I think the eye test shows that he's probably the best QB in the league at extending play and dropping delicately placed bombs, apologies to Aaron Rodgers.

This is something only someone who's never seen Russell Wilson play would say. Wilson has been doing this for afloat 10 years now. Better than anyone in history. Even Mahomes and Rodgers. And doing it behind the worst o line I've seen since Barry Sanders had.

 

[BPTDirector]

I would argue that the GOAT of any sport is an opinion based on era and geographic location for all of us. I would pick Jordan over LeBron every time but it can be argued that Russell or Kareem or Oscar Robertson be named As well. Likewise Unitas or Starr or Montana or a number of others including Manning. Let’s all agree that it’s a designation of personal choice.

 

[RocAFella1]

Wait 'til the pros get a taste of Trevor.

 

[RainmanTrail]

2007

NE

Yrds 4,806

TD 50

Int 8

Rtg 117.2

You don't think Brady was the best QB of the 2007 season?

Ya, he was the best QB in 2007. He was also throwing to the 2nd greatest WR in history that season.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I would argue that the GOAT of any sport is an opinion based on era and geographic location for all of us. I would pick Jordan over LeBron every time but it can be argued that Russell or Kareem or Oscar Robertson be named As well. Likewise Unitas or Starr or Montana or a number of others including Manning. Let’s all agree that it’s a designation of personal choice.

This is literally the most boring comment here. It can be fun to disagree, in fact pacmartine actually made a point I hadn’t heard or thought of before.

This is something only someone who's never seen Russell Wilson play would say. Wilson has been doing this for afloat 10 years now. Better than anyone in history. Even Mahomes and Rodgers. And doing it behind the worst o line I've seen since Barry Sanders had.

Love me some Russell. Fav QB to draft fantasy so I have an excuse to watch their games.

As of today, I don’t think he can match Mahomes, just differing opinions. I’d prob give Russel greater elusiveness and sideline to sideline or breakaway speed, but Mahomes on strength, pocket presence and climbing the ladder, and 100x on throwing cross body back to other side of the field. Probably equal in keeping eyes down the field while scrambling.

 

[Chipton]

Ya, he was the best QB in 2007. He was also throwing to the 2nd greatest WR in history that season.

you're probably NOT implying that Garoppolo could have that kind of season throwing to Randy Moss?
Yeah well Marvin Harrison was pretty damn good too.

 

[Tarheel4Life]

I look at it from the perspective of who would I want under center if we needed to go 95 yards in 2 minutes to save humanity.

Put another way, if you’re a fan of the other team, who do you absolutely dread giving the ball back to with 2 minutes left up 4 points?

I’ve got it as:

1- Brady
2- Unitas
3- Manning
4- Marino
5- Montana
6- Brees
7- Rodgers
8- Staubach
9- Elway *
10- Starr

* - in his latter years - he was a choke artist earlier in his carrier

Brady and Manning are probably the best 2 in history at reading a defense and adjusting plays at the line to give their offense a maximum chance to move the ball as far as possible downfield - a lot of times that might mean audibling into a run.

Both QBs (and Brees and Marino) hardly ever took bad sacks. All 4 have a very quick release and read defenses exceptionally well.

Unitas virtually invented the two minute drill.

Montana and Young probably had the best surrounding cast of anyone on my list. Brees also had some potent offensive tools at wideout. Most of the Pats receivers were hot garbage in comparison.

Its not just about passing stats. The position isn’t called “thrower”, despite what my wife says.

 

[Tarheel4Life]

He'd have to pick LeBron right? Based on being the only one in the conversation who won regardless of system, coach, 2nd and 3rd best player, team, etc.

The ultimate team foundational piece that can win regardless of circumstance.

LeBron is playing in an era where he gets to build teams around him. MJ was stuck with a fossil in Cartwright at center, a head case at power forward in Rodman, average point guards, and a good small forward in Pippen who was never super successful outside of playing with MJ.

LeBron is in my top 10 because of freakishly exceptional ability and physicality, but put him and MJ on one of those average Chicago teams and I like MJ to be more successful.

 

[Tarheel4Life]

If someone says Terry Bradshaw top 5 I’ll fight you. He couldn’t spell cat if you spotted him both consonants (I forget who said that back in the 70s but it’s still funny).

 

[BarrieJ3]

LeBron is playing in an era where he gets to build teams around him. MJ was stuck with a fossil in Cartwright at center, a head case at power forward in Rodman, average point guards, and a good small forward in Pippen who was never super successful outside of playing with MJ.

LeBron is in my top 10 because of freakishly exceptional ability and physicality, but put him and MJ on one of those average Chicago teams and I like MJ to be more successful.

I’m with ya. Just differing opinions there too I think.

LeBron came in and went toe to toe to the finals with...the center with crazy hair and booby miles at point guard. Then Miami, then Cleveland, then LA.

I hear you say LeBron can build teams around him. But I think that actually builds his case. Give him this coach. That coach. No coach. His number 2 can be a point guard. Traditional big man. Slashing wing. Doesn’t matter, championships. Lol LeBron has never built a team around him, he’s never forced others to his style or setup. He picks a team and a friend and wins a championship.

At this point we have to say he can and does win with anyone, I can’t imagine Scottie would be any different. (And I don’t think LeBron has had a teammate as skilled as Scottie ever, until maybe AD)

 

[DarPodo]

I thought bad takes were reserved for the politics threads. Yikes.

 

[Mac128k]

I look at it from the perspective of who would I want under center if we needed to go 95 yards in 2 minutes to save humanity.

Put another way, if you’re a fan of the other team, who do you absolutely dread giving the ball back to with 2 minutes left up 4 points?

I’ve got it as:

1- Brady
2- Unitas
3- Manning
4- Marino
5- Montana
6- Brees
7- Rodgers
8- Staubach
9- Elway *
10- Starr

* - in his latter years - he was a choke artist earlier in his carrier

Brady and Manning are probably the best 2 in history at reading a defense and adjusting plays at the line to give their offense a maximum chance to move the ball as far as possible downfield - a lot of times that might mean audibling into a run.

Both QBs (and Brees and Marino) hardly ever took bad sacks. All 4 have a very quick release and read defenses exceptionally well.

Unitas virtually invented the two minute drill.

Montana and Young probably had the best surrounding cast of anyone on my list. Brees also had some potent offensive tools at wideout. Most of the Pats receivers were hot garbage in comparison.

Its not just about passing stats. The position isn’t called “thrower”, despite what my wife says.

I look at it this way too. Even though I'm a Colts fan for me it is Montana. People forget how he and Walsh had a way of pulling magic out of their hat no matter what. I'd also feel pretty confident with Manning "omahaing" his way down the field in those two minutes.

Now, if Brady let the air out of the balls, Bilichick filmed the opponents practice, and Kraft paid the refs off as usual, give it to the Shitriots and we're in good hands.

 

[Chawks45]

If someone says Terry Bradshaw top 5 I’ll fight you. He couldn’t spell cat if you spotted him both consonants (I forget who said that back in the 70s but it’s still funny).

Cowboys LB Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson gave that quote just before the Cowboys played the Steelers in Super Bowl XIII.

 

[B.C.]

LeBron is playing in an era where he gets to build teams around him. MJ was stuck with a fossil in Cartwright at center, a head case at power forward in Rodman, average point guards, and a good small forward in Pippen who was never super successful outside of playing with MJ.

LeBron is in my top 10 because of freakishly exceptional ability and physicality, but put him and MJ on one of those average Chicago teams and I like MJ to be more successful.

Jordan went 1-9 in finals games without Pippen. He might rate Scotty a bit better than "good".

 

[RainmanTrail]

I grew up in the Bird/Magic era, so you don’t need to convince me about Kareem. But in your analogy Kareem doesn’t seem to fit as the Brady comparison. Russell would be Brady, and Kareem would be Peyton, Elway, or whoever.

The argument I proposed for Brady being the GOAT is him being an elite QB for 20 years, and having 6 rings. The longevity is a huge factor in the argument of Brady being the GOAT in my opinion. Kareem was similar in that regard. Ya, he won a lot of rings as well, but he wasn't just great in his prime, he was great for decades. Bill Russell was good, but he never even averaged more than something like 18 ppg in a season. That's pretty bad considering he played in an era where everyone else not named Wilt was a 6'0 white guy like me. Bill Russell probably isn't even a top 20 NBA player, let alone in the GOAT conversation. A prime example of why rings shouldn't matter all that much.

An individual's proportionate contribution to a championship is almost always going to be overrated by the masses. LeBron James is pretty much the only player I can think of in any sport who has truly done it by himself off the top of my head (I'm sure there are others). Pippen might be the most under rated HOFer of all time. The Pats were elite without Brady at every opportunity. The Bulls had a losing record with Jordan every year before Pippen arrived, including Jordan's most dominant year where he averaged 37+ ppg. Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Robinson, Wade, Hakeem, none of those guys won by themselves. And it's even less possible in football. You can be the greatest QB who ever lived, and you're still not even responsible for 30% of your team's success.

At least baseball has figured this out. They'll actually give the MVP trophy to the best player each year regardless of how shitty their team is (for the most part). If Mike Trout were in the NBA or NFL, he'd never win the MVP despite clearly being the best player.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I look at it from the perspective of who would I want under center if we needed to go 95 yards in 2 minutes to save humanity.

Put another way, if you’re a fan of the other team, who do you absolutely dread giving the ball back to with 2 minutes left up 4 points?

I’ve got it as:

1- Brady
2- Unitas
3- Manning
4- Marino
5- Montana
6- Brees
7- Rodgers
8- Staubach
9- Elway *
10- Starr

* - in his latter years - he was a choke artist earlier in his carrier

Brady and Manning are probably the best 2 in history at reading a defense and adjusting plays at the line to give their offense a maximum chance to move the ball as far as possible downfield - a lot of times that might mean audibling into a run.

Both QBs (and Brees and Marino) hardly ever took bad sacks. All 4 have a very quick release and read defenses exceptionally well.

Unitas virtually invented the two minute drill.

Montana and Young probably had the best surrounding cast of anyone on my list. Brees also had some potent offensive tools at wideout. Most of the Pats receivers were hot garbage in comparison.

Its not just about passing stats. The position isn’t called “thrower”, despite what my wife says.

Again, no love for Russell Wilson? Is there any QB in the last decade with more 4th quarter come back wins or game winning drives than Russell Wilson? I don't think there is. I might be wrong, but I believe he dominates that category if this is what's most important to you.

 

[Psypher1000]

Wait 'til the pros get a taste of Trevor.

Probably tastes like chicken.

 

[shorticus]

Ya, he was the best QB in 2007. He was also throwing to the 2nd greatest WR in history that season.

And the only legitimate WR he’s ever had! Unless you want to say Bethel Johnson, Julian Edelman, Wes Welker, David Givens, etc are great.

Point being, when my GOAT had a single serviceable WR, he broke records and had a perfect regular season. He was literally a helmet catch away from the greatest season ever. If it weren’t for a tossed up prayer to a guy who ran the wrong route making what’s going to go down as possibly the best catch in the history of football (yes, it tops “The Drive”), Brady is 7-2 in SuperBowls. That’s with an older Randy Moss who was traded to NE for a 5th round pick!

 

[RainmanTrail]

LeBron is playing in an era where he gets to build teams around him. MJ was stuck with a fossil in Cartwright at center, a head case at power forward in Rodman, average point guards, and a good small forward in Pippen who was never super successful outside of playing with MJ.

LeBron is in my top 10 because of freakishly exceptional ability and physicality, but put him and MJ on one of those average Chicago teams and I like MJ to be more successful.

LeBron single-handedly came back from a 3-1 deficit in the NBA Finals to beat one of the greatest teams in NBA history (the Warriors in their true prime, the season they went 73-9). He literally beat them BY HIMSELF. Kyrie Irving was out, and so was Kevin Love. It was ALL LeBron. No other athlete in any other team sport has done something similar that I'm aware of.

Also, Dennis Rodman wasn't just some headcase. He was and still is regarded by many as the greatest defensive player who ever lived (a separate debate obviously, but he's definitely in the conversation at least). He could shut down anyone and everyone, regardless of the position. He's a huge part of why the Pistons won when they did too. As for Scottie Pippen not having success outside of Jordan, the Bulls were 57-25 in 1993 when they won their 3rd title with Jordan and Pippen. The next year, Jordan retires, and they went 55-27. That's only 2 fewer wins after losing Michael Jordan! Pippen also led the league in steals that year. Pippen was very underrated. He truly was one of the all-time greats.

Here are the Bulls records during the Jordan-Pippen era:
1984 38-44 - Jordan
1985 9-9 - Jordan (injured)
1986 40-42 - Jordan
1987 50-32 - Jordan + Pippen
1988 47-35 - Jordan + Pippen
1989 55-27 - Jordan + Pippen
1990 61-21 - Jordan + Pippen
1991 67-15 - Jordan + Pippen
1992 57-25 - Jordan + Pippen
1993 55-27 - Pippen
1994 33-31 - Pippen
1994 13-4 - Jordan + Pippen
1995 72-10 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1996 69-13 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1997 62-20 - Jordan + Pippen + Rodman
1998 13-37 - All 3 players left

Combine those together and you get
203-43 = 82.5% win rate w/ Jordan+Pippen+Rodman
350-159 = 68.8% win rate w/ Jordan+Pippen
87-95 = 47.8% win rate w/ Jordan only
88-58 = 60.3% win rate w/ Pippen only

 

[RainmanTrail]

Let's not forget the Patriots having the softest schedule of any team pretty much every single year. This matters. It gives them home field advantage throughout the playoffs. They probably don't even make it to the Super Bowl at least 2 or 3 times if they had a tougher schedule, or even just an average schedule. They played high school teams twice a year for most of the last decade.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Let's not forget the Patriots having the softest schedule of any team pretty much every single year. This matters. It gives them home field advantage throughout the playoffs. They probably don't even make it to the Super Bowl at least 2 or 3 times if they had a tougher schedule, or even just an average schedule. They played high school teams twice a year for most of the last decade.

But also yes

 

[RainmanTrail]

Also, the numerous cheating scandals of the Patriots over the years somehow seem to be far too easily overlooked. This stuff matters. And I'm sure all of their cheating scandals didn't even come to light. It's clear that if there was a way for them to gain an edge, fairly or unfairly, they were going to take it.

Somehow, guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens had their entire careers discredited, and the public wants to strip the Astros of their titles for reading a few pitching signs at opportune moments. But the Patriots repeatedly spying on their opponents to know which plays they are running, and deflating footballs in cold weather so that they're easier to catch (no way that was the first time either), and somehow it's just sour grapes for everyone that's not a Pats fan when they hoist a trophy? Sorry. But that shit matters.

 

[RainmanTrail]

As far as my views on Jordan vs LeBron, I honestly think it's too close to call. Both did things that the other seemed incapable of. The GOAT is definitely one of the two though. I'd probably put Kareem 3rd. I've gone back and forth over Jordan vs LeBron. I'm a huge NBA fan. Always have been. I've probably seen every single playoff game both of them have ever played in. I could make a long list for and against each one as the GOAT. But I can't seem to choose one over the other.

Jordan was a better version of Kobe, and LeBron is a better version of Magic. I don't know who is the GOAT though.

 

[RainmanTrail]

My top 10 NBA players of all time are probably (in no particular order)

MJ & LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Oscar Robertson or Wilt

Then it's (in no particular order)
David Robinson
Stockton
Isaiah Thomas
Pippen
Karl Malone
Giannis
Garnett
Dr J
Barkley
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Bill Russell
Elgin Baylor
Gary Payton
Wade
Kidd
Curry
Kawhi