Tourney Thoughts on this T20k starting stack and structure? (1 Viewer)

[dmoney]

A local host wants to put on a single-table $500 tournament and is interested in renting my chips for it. He's asking for my input, so I'm steering towards deeper and more skillful structures vs. some more rebuy-focused setups, as I may play in the tournament myself.

I have suggested a T25-base, 20k, estimating for 3 rebuys so the tournament would run for about 6 hours with 20-minute levels. He likes the idea of a t15k with a 5k on-time bonus.

I think players would want lots of chips in play, for mostly psychological reasons: to feel like they are getting their money's worth and to loosen up the game. So I'm leaning towards a 16/16/8/9/1 breakdown of 50 chips to start, with rebuys at 20x t1000. With a deep stack, slow structure, and relatively high buy-in, I think the rebuys will be minimal if they are cut off at level 6 (~2 hours). Rebuys and surrender stacks at level 6 would start with 50bbs - plenty for a tourney, imo.

Thoughts and opinions please!

Level	Small Blind	Big Blind
--	25	25
1	25	50
2	25	75
3	50	100
4	75	150
5	100	200
6	150	300
Color Up t25 | End rebuys & surrender stacks
7	200	400
8	300	600
9	400	800
10	600	1,200
11	800	1,600
Color up t100
12	1,000	2,000
13	1,500	3,000
14	2,000	4,000
15	3,000	6,000
Color up t500
16	4,000	8,000
17	6,000	12,000
18	8,000	16,000
Color up t1000 | Projected end of tournament
19	10,000	20,000
20	15,000	30,000

 

[dmoney]

Full set breakdown for consideration. The white are oversized no-denom intended to be t25k if needed.

 

[dmoney]

Sidenote: 50-chip starting stacks and 20-chip rebuys make for easy pre-setup - 2 starting stacks per rack, grab a barrel of t1000s and go for rebuys!

 

[JustinInMN]

I like it. Pretty similar to my structure actually (repeating 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 of each chip after the initial levels.)

 

[JustinInMN]

As for the number of chips, have run with similar stacks in the past and it works fine. You still will have occasions for change making, there is just no getting around that no matter what you do, but 50 chips is manageable.

You might consider doing rebuys as all 5k though because you will want more of those in play at the end.

 

[BGinGA]

Stack breakdown and blind structure look fine, although I'd probably drop the 25/25 level and just start at 25/50 (400bb).

I'd also rather see 20k starting stacks with a 5k on-time bonus, versus the bonus being worth a whopping third of a 15k stack. Still easy to prepare ahead of time; just have a half-barrel of T5000s to distribute just prior to cards-fly. (You also don't have to remove any chips from latecomer stacks this way).

Use T1000 and T5000 chips for color-ups, to ensure enough are in play when needed. With 10 players, that's 4x T1000 for T25s, 3x T5000 and 1x T1000 for T100s, and 8x T5000 for T500s for a total of 16x color-up chips (5x T1000 and 11x T5000). I would not color-up the T1000 chips.

That places at least 95x T1000 and 21x T5000 chips in play at tournament end, not counting any re-buys or on-time bonuses.

With 25/50 starting blinds, 25k starting stacks (20k + 5k bonus), 20-minute levels, and three 10-minute color-up breaks, you're still looking at slightly more than 6 hours total run-time. Re-buys (unlikely) won't add any significant length to the event.

 

[dmoney]

You might consider doing rebuys as all 5k though because you will want more of those in play at the end.

Not a bad idea.

Stack breakdown and blind structure look fine

Coming from a tourney structure wizard I take this as a compliment!

I'd also rather see 20k starting stacks with a 5k on-time bonus

Interesting point - especially if it doesn’t mess with the length of the tourney and don’t have to deal with your comment below.

(You also don't have to remove any chips from latecomer stacks this way).

With 260k chips in play, I was aiming for 160 t1000 and 20 t5000 but that might be a few too many chips for the end stages when all ins are more common and stacks are much shorter.

That places at least 95x T1000 and 21x T5000 chips in play at tournament end, not counting any re-buys or on-time bonuses.

Perfect - thanks for laying it all out!

With 25/50 starting blinds, 25k starting stacks (20k + 5k bonus), 20-minute levels, and three 10-minute color-up breaks, you're still looking at slightly more than 6 hours total run-time. Re-buys (unlikely) won't add any significant length to the event.

 

[Benjaminotaur]

I second the 5k chips for rebuy. If you’re concerned about the mix at the end, you could steer towards a 10/2 or 5/3 mix instead for a nice compromise

 

[dmoney]

I second the 5k chips for rebuy. If you’re concerned about the mix at the end, you could steer towards a 10/2 or 5/3 mix instead for a nice compromise

Really like 10/2 as a compromise. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[JustinInMN]

Wanted to add a comment on break placement.

One of the awkward things about the base T25 structure is the color up of the T500, since in this structure, it could be two levels after the T100 color up. I know we've had threads on this, but from what I recall there are a couple approaches.

1) Delay the T100 color up by two levels and do T100 and T500 together. (You could also change the 1000-2000 and 1500-3000 levels to 1200-2400 and 1600-3200 if you do this and want to accelerate the progression a bit.)
2) Do a short-break instead of a full break to color up the T500. The T500 color up is the simplest to do, you could maybe get away with a 5 minute pause here instead of a full smoking-length break as you would have had two levels ago.

Not sure how much this input matters anyway because it sounds like @dmoney isn't actually hosting in this case, just offering advice to another host, but figured I might add a little digital ink on this topic.

 

[aggie]

View attachment 1074064

Cool label.

 

[dmoney]

Wanted to add a comment on break placement.

One of the awkward things about the base T25 structure is the color up of the T500, since in this structure, it could be two levels after the T100 color up. I know we've had threads on this, but from what I recall there are a couple approaches.

1) Delay the T100 color up by two levels and do T100 and T500 together. (You could also change the 1000-2000 and 1500-3000 levels to 1200-2400 and 1600-3200 if you do this and want to accelerate the progression a bit.)
2) Do a short-break instead of a full break to color up the T500. The T500 color up is the simplest to do, you could maybe get away with a 5 minute pause here instead of a full smoking-length break as you would have had two levels ago.

Not sure how much this input matters anyway because it sounds like @dmoney isn't actually hosting in this case, just offering advice to another host, but figured I might add a little digital ink on this topic.

Good points @JustinInMN.

What about coloring off the t500 while continuing play? If it runs, I think the game would have a dedicated dealer (not the host) which might leave the host free to quickly buy the t500s from players and the pot over the course of a few hands.

Is that a viable compromise as well?

 

[dmoney]

Cool label.

Thanks! It’s a ceramic chip printed on the Cards mold from a Tina group buy. Design was my idea, brought to life by @timinater.

 

[JustinInMN]

Good points @JustinInMN.

What about coloring off the t500 while continuing play? If it runs, I think the game would have a dedicated dealer (not the host) which might leave the host free to quickly buy the t500s from players and the pot over the course of a few hands.

Is that a viable compromise as well?

The only issue with this is the dragging it over the course of a few hands. It could introduce issues if some players have their chips replaced in different hands.

But to help reduce the break time needed, I will remind the best practice for any color up is to get all the chips to be removed in changeable quantity to one or two players in the final few hands BEFORE the conclusion of the level of the color up. This means individual players will only be left with "odd" chips. (In the case of the T500, no more than one "odd" chip possible per player.) A center dealer is a big help in facilitating this. Then host then picks up most of the chips coming out from 1-2 players and replaces them with large denominations, and then at most the host only has to award one chip of the next denomination to the remaining players.

To put an example in the proposed structure here, you will have 80 T500 chips in play a total value T40K. You would ask 1-2 of the deeper stack players to collect T500s from his neighbors and then add enough T1000 chips to make some amount that can be paid in T5000 chips from the bank once the level is complete. After that exchange, all players should have at most one T500 chip in their stack, making it a simple task for the host to award T1000 chips from the bank to these players either by rounding up all players automatically or through drawing cards. (Known as a "chip-race.")

 

[dmoney]

The only issue with this is the dragging it over the course of a few hands. It could introduce issues if some players have their chips replaced in different hands.

But to help reduce the break time needed, I will remind the best practice for any color up is to get all the chips to be removed in changeable quantity to one or two players in the final few hands BEFORE the conclusion of the level of the color up. This means individual players will only be left with "odd" chips. (In the case of the T500, no more than one "odd" chip possible per player.) A center dealer is a big help in facilitating this. Then host then picks up most of the chips coming out from 1-2 players and replaces them with large denominations, and then at most has to award one chip of the next denomination to the remaining players.

To put an example in the proposed structure here, you will have 80 T500 chips in play a total value T40K. You would ask 1-2 of the deeper stack players to collect T500s from his neighbors and then add enough T1000 chips to make some amount that can be paid in T5000 chips from the bank once the level is complete. After that exchange, all players should have at most one T500 chip in their stack, making it a simple task for the host to award T1000 chips from the bank to these players either by rounding up all players automatically or through drawing cards. (Known as a "chip-race.")

If I were running the game myself, I’d be a little more confident in changing chips out.

I’m less confident with this host - not sure how familiar he’d be with best practices like having big stacks buy up chips, or racing off chips.

I’m inclined to expect “rounding up” (ie an odd 500 traded 1:1 for a 1k). Not ideal but also not really a huge issue for a single table … right?

 

[JustinInMN]

If I were running the game myself, I’d be a little more confident in changing chips out.

I’m less confident with this host - not sure how familiar he’d be with best practices like having big stacks buy up chips, or racing off chips.

I’m inclined to expect “rounding up” (ie an odd 500 traded 1:1 for a 1k). Not ideal but also not really a huge issue for a single table … right?

This is going to open up a debate .

I personally have two objections to the round-up method.
1) It introduces too many chips into the tournament. Given the example of a T20K tournament with 10 players in an average scenario, through three color ups, you would be introducing roughly 5K into the tournament, in a worst case, nearly 10K would be added, that's half a buy in. In a larger tournament, you could round in complete buy-ins worth of chips that come from nowhere just by rounding.

2) It does open up an small avenue of exploitation, that players are essentially "freerolling" on odd chips over the minimum required to get rounded up in situations close to the round up.

That said, maybe half a starting stack isn't significant in a T20K with only 10 players. That's a judgement call. But the bigger the tournament, the more you should prefer doing chip racing to round up.

And I do concede, the simplicity of round-up has it's appeal, and why many hosts use it. But I think the two downsides I laid out above make it a no for me.

That said, if this host needs help, he should watch @Chris Manzoni 's video on tournaments, and he will be in pretty good shape. (Chris does teach the round-up method, though.)

 

[BGinGA]

re: a debate

The phrase "too many chips" carries no weight on this forum.

 

[BGinGA]

All kidding aside, rounding is really a non-issue in reality. The actual total number of "added chips" in relation to the total amount of chips in play is insignificant, and is nowhere near 5% (a half-buyin in a 10-player field).

Removing both T100 and T500 chips simultaneously also significantly reduces the amount of artificially-added chip value.

 

[dmoney]

Things from this thread I am going to push the host towards, if this event happens:

• T20k+5k on-time, 20-minute levels
• Rebuys 10/2 (since the 5k is a bonus, rebuys would be 20k not 25k right?)
• Rebuys end after level 6 (50bbs for rebuy/surrender)
• Start at level 1 25/50 (either 400 or 500bbs deep, pending on-time bonus)
• Combined t100 & t500 round up after level 15 after approx 5 hours of play

 

[dmoney]

@BGinGA if we do the 20k+5k on-time bonus, rebuys would be at 20k, right?

 

[Nine_high]

If you do give the bonus to a rebuy, then strictly speaking you don't have an on time bonus you have a late penalty. A player who buys in 5 min late gets 20k, then gets felted and rebuys and gets 25k? Or he only gets 20k because he was late but his on-time neighbor rebuys for 25k? I would not do either of these.

I would effectively treat a rebuy like another late entry, 20k.

 

[BGinGA]

@BGinGA if we do the 20k+5k on-time bonus, rebuys would be at 20k, right?

Correct.

 

[JustinInMN]

If you do give the bonus to a rebuy, then strictly speaking you don't have an on time bonus you have a late penalty. A player who buys in 5 min late gets 20k, then gets felted and rebuys and gets 25k? Or he only gets 20k because he was late but his on-time neighbor rebuys for 25k? I would not do either of these.

It's all in how you word it, right .

 

[Nine_high]

It's all in how you word it, right .

I prefer positive reinforcement...I guess if someone managed to get felted before the start of the game, I'd include the bonus on their rebuy

 

[JustinInMN]

I prefer positive reinforcement...I guess if someone managed to get felted before the start of the game, I'd include the bonus on their rebuy

I don't do bonuses, based on the comments here, the standard is to apply it to the first buy in only. That said, as long as it was a clear rule, it could be if the first buy in was on time, the bonus applies to all re-entries.

 

[Nine_high]

as long as it was a clear rule, it could be if the first buy in was on time, the bonus applies to all re-entries.

If this were the rule and I was running a few minutes late, I'd consider not showing up. Especially with it being as high as 25%. I'd hate to be a 3-legged horse for the whole race...just put me down.

Fine line between incentive for showing up on time and disincentive for showing up late.

 

[JustinInMN]

If this were the rule and I was running a few minutes late, I'd consider not showing up. Especially with it being as high as 25%. I'd hate to be a 3-legged horse for the whole race...just put me down.

Fine line between incentive for showing up on time and disincentive for showing up late.

Not saying it's the right thing, but I am saying it could be.

 

[Nine_high]

Not saying it's the right thing, but I am saying it could be.

Then just send me to that big beautiful cash table in the sky