Term: Angle, Angling (2 Viewers)

What is the definition of angling?

  • Intentionally being deceptive to increase EV

    Votes: 24 63.2%
  • Blatantly intending to cheat, knowingly and purposefully breaking rules

    Votes: 6 15.8%
  • Other...

    Votes: 8 21.1%

  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .

raynmanas

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It’s cool. But isn’t there a rule somewhere that if you see another’s cards your hand is dead?

I was in a casino one time with a friend, tournament, and the dealer dealt a hand out, and before my friend cab even pick his cards up the dealer reached over and said “your hand is dead sir” and mucked his hand. My friend was speechless. The dealer saw this and said “when I was dealing I noticed I dealt one card to your neighbor that you could see because of the pitch. Therefore your hand is dead.” My friend called the floor who backed the dealer up. Bad ruling?

where was this? i would never play at a place with that rule.
 

raynmanas

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Tulsa Oklahoma. 36th street million dollar elm casino

At the time it was a dive but they’ve rebuilt it some.

one would hope they have been set straight on that rule by now.
 

DeusEx

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I can always tell when someone is lying... because their mouth was moving ;)
 

surfik

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I belive it's exploiting gray area not covered by rules. Breaking etiquette as would Hellmuth say..
Tony G vs Phil is a good example...

I just by the rule don't trust what people say at the poker table
 

DeusEx

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I think we have a term - Thanks everyone!
 
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Darson

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1666709330658.png
 

Schmendr1ck

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Maybe too late, but I've always considered intentional ambiguity to be an important part of angle shooting.

The guy that throws in a second big chip knows that by OCR he is raising, but he wants to make it look like he tried to call. The guy pushing chips forward but not crossing the betting line knows that he hasn't legally acted, but is trying to make it look like he bet or raised.

Angle shooting, to me, is trying to gain an advantage by creating ambiguity while not actually breaking the rules.
 

DeusEx

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Maybe too late, but I've always considered intentional ambiguity to be an important part of angle shooting.

The guy that throws in a second big chip knows that by OCR he is raising, but he wants to make it look like he tried to call. The guy pushing chips forward but not crossing the betting line knows that he hasn't legally acted, but is trying to make it look like he bet or raised.

Angle shooting, to me, is trying to gain an advantage by creating ambiguity while not actually breaking the rules.
Never too late sir
 

inca911

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To me, angling is using a deeper knowledge of potentially grey poker rules/procedures to attempt to gain an advantage. There are degrees of "angling" that come close to (or that are) outright cheating or obvious theft, but much is in the eye and ethics of the beholder.

For example, a player at low blind levels in a big tournament (having many 25 and 100 chips in front of him) tosses in a 1k chip in response to a bet (without saying call) in order to get a reaction from an opponent. Some opponents might fold incorrectly assuming it's a raise, the angler knows it isn't.

When heads-up, deliberately showing a card to an opponent could be considered an angle. If I have the nut flush and show you the Ace you might assume I don't have a made hand and call with a worse hand. Angle perhaps, but also legal in most rooms. Pump-faking a bet behind the betting line is shady, but still probably would be called an angle.

Misstating the amount of a bet can be called an angle. Stating a verbal "five" then gauging an opponent's reactions could mean five hundred or five thousand in a tournament. The angler knows.

Things like deliberately mis-declaring your hand, hiding big chips, talking when there are more than 2 players in a hand aren't angles. That's cheating. Same thing with claiming physical actions were incorrectly interpreted by a dealer, which is somewhat common in casinos. For example: a partial rap of the table "I didn't check", or intentionally accidentally dropping chips "I didn't call", forward motion pseudo-calls, etc. Stating "You've got it", hoping a player tosses their hand into the muck is more cheat than angle to me. Their argument is that "you got it?" was a question.

An even more severe example that was recently shared was a player tossed a single chip across the pot in a cash game and his opponent assumed it meant a call and promptly tabled his hand. Seeing that his hand would have lost, the angler attempted to say the chip didn't signify a call, rather it was a tip for the dealer. Very much on the edge of cheating but could be called an angle by some.

Here's another cash game example that could incorrectly invite "angle" terminology. A player announces "all in" during a cash game and ends up losing the pot; however, the player didn't physically push any of his chips into the pot. The player takes his stack of $1k chips in front of him and leaves the casino giving nothing to the winner. It's an angle as the chips aren't technically in the pot and the casino never took possession of the chips to be able to legally award them to the winner. Real situation, outright theft, could also be termed an angle (incorrectly, IMO).
 

Darson

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There's a guy I play with who always picks up a stack of chips and drops the one or two chip call off the bottom. If this isn't an angle, then I don't know what is.
 

JustinInMN

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"Intentionally being deceptive to increase EV" is way too broad to be correct. A bluff fits this definition, which no one could argue is against poker rules.
 
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Mr Winberg

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From reading peoples opinions in various threads I think I may have a more liberal take on angling than most. I truly believe that being deceptive is a integral part of poker and makes it fun. I'm not really sure where I draw the line. I'm definitely against using technicalities to gain advantage.

For example, value betting the river where only some of the chips make it across the betting line, if he calls with a loser you take his money, he calls with a winner you take back the chips that didn't cross the line. That's misusing the rules, i.e. angling IMO.

However, I saw a clip from a cash game where someone bluffed the river. The opponent thought for a while and then made a motion to call. The bluffer said "Two pair" and motioned to show his cards, stopped, and then "oh...sorry" as he "realize" the opponent hadn't called yet. It was really smooth and believable. The opponent (who had top pair) opted to fold.
In my book, that's not angling, that's poker! No rules were misused, just good ole fashioned misinformation!

The classic clip where the villain says "raise", puts out calling chips, claims he wants to call ("I bad inglish"), is forced by the floor to minraise, and is of course sitting on the nutz. Yes, that's misinformation, but he's also misusing the rules, so in my book it's angling.

YMMV
 

Mr Winberg

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There's a guy I play with who always picks up a stack of chips and drops the one or two chip call off the bottom. If this isn't an angle, then I don't know what is.
If you watch old clips of WSOP and WPT they do this all the time. I guess the rules changed at some point. Maybe he's angling, maybe he's old fashioned?
What advantage would he be getting? Is he really good at reading people and observes the opponent while doing so? Like "oh shit, he's gonna call! I'd better only drop a few"?
 

Darson

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If you watch old clips of WSOP and WPT they do this all the time. I guess the rules changed at some point. Maybe he's angling, maybe he's old fashioned?
What advantage would he be getting? Is he really good at reading people and observes the opponent while doing so? Like "oh shit, he's gonna call! I'd better only drop a few"?
He's definitely old school.
 

QuiQuog

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If you watch old clips of WSOP and WPT they do this all the time. I guess the rules changed at some point. Maybe he's angling, maybe he's old fashioned?
What advantage would he be getting? Is he really good at reading people and observes the opponent while doing so? Like "oh shit, he's gonna call! I'd better only drop a few"?
I'd say that's exactly what it is if he's an experienced player. A lot of newer players do this with no intent, or any idea that it's a bad idea. I'm not a casino guy, but isn't there a rule that any chips that cross the line are considered part of the bet/raise?
 

glynn

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I'm not a casino guy, but isn't there a rule that any chips that cross the line are considered part of the bet/raise?
Not in cash games in most rooms, no. This is "cut and release" with a very small cut.
 

DeusEx

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I'd say that's exactly what it is if he's an experienced player. A lot of newer players do this with no intent, or any idea that it's a bad idea. I'm not a casino guy, but isn't there a rule that any chips that cross the line are considered part of the bet/raise?
I have a friend with over 70 players cards, he finally found one the hard way. There was no signage, and it wasn't posted. It's not really a thing, and when its actually implemented its very bad for the game, and is often used to actually angle.

Picks up a 25 barrel of green, extend over the line, to call, then argue I said call, I didn't know, now its a bet, and it gets called... very bad for players.
 

upNdown

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I'd say that's exactly what it is if he's an experienced player. A lot of newer players do this with no intent, or any idea that it's a bad idea. I'm not a casino guy, but isn't there a rule that any chips that cross the line are considered part of the bet/raise?
Different places, different rules. Some have a hard betting line, but I think the "chips released" rule that allows this weirdness is the more common rule.
For the record, I think it's dumb as shit to bring a barrel out, drop two chips, then bring it back. But I totally don't care. If somebody's getting angled by that, they might want to work on their game.
 

DeusEx

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Different places, different rules. Some have a hard betting line, but I think the "chips released" rule that allows this weirdness is the more common rule.
For the record, I think it's dumb as shit to bring a barrel out, drop two chips, then bring it back. But I totally don't care. If somebody's getting angled by that, they might want to work on their game.
yeah I'd make fun of them and do the same shit with theatrics to highlight their play. Maybe double fist barrels and drop 1 chip from each hand.
 

glynn

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The example currently used to demonstrate "Angle" in the glossary gets the single oversized chip rule wrong, but it uses the "€" symbol so who knows what whackery they follow over there.
 

MrCatPants

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There's a guy I play with who always picks up a stack of chips and drops the one or two chip call off the bottom. If this isn't an angle, then I don't know what is.
Let's call him Daniel.

But seriously, I used to make a bigger deal on this, but all the forward motion stuff seems to now be about releasing into the pot.
 

Darson

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Let's call him Daniel.

But seriously, I used to make a bigger deal on this, but all the forward motion stuff seems to now be about releasing into the pot.
I never thought of it as an angle until this thread. Now I'm gonna see if he's looking at players when he does this or not... that Daniel...
 

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