Tourney T25's .... good or bad? (1 Viewer)

MaxB

Full House
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
3,413
Reaction score
5,112
Location
New Hampshire
I always structure my tourneys with T25's, however I am not a big fan of them. Are they really needed in a tournament or would starting with T100's as the lowest chip be ok? How do the big tournaments handle it (like WPT, WSOP) with T100k and T1Million chips, do they even have T25's?
 
You could in theory start with any denomination. Up to you.

Practicalities:
  • Some people are more familiar with a *traditional* 25-50 starting blind.
  • Starting higher means you get to the T500/T1000 issue quicker (i.e. 500's become somewhat redundant faster because they're only half the value of the 1000's). Unless you go 25>100>500>2000
  • If it was up to me blinds would always start at 1-2, then the 500/1000 problem would never be an issue.
  • But I don't have any T1 or T5 chips.
 
The people who organize the local tournaments here used to do 10k S'n'Gs and 15k tournaments, nowadays purely 50k deepstack tournaments, always with T100 as their lowest chip. It appears to somewhat work purely from a blind increases perspective. (They just doctor the level times and other rules to make these tournaments massively luck-dependent and rebuy/add-on-encouraging.... but that's a different story.)

100 / 200
200 / 400
300 / 600
400 / 800
500 / 1.000
break & color up 100
1.000 / 2.000
2.000 / 4.000
3.000 / 6.000
4.000 / 8.000
5.000 / 10.000
break & color up 500
7.000 / 14.000
10.000 / 20.000
15.000 / 30.000
20.000 / 40.000
30.000 / 60.000
40.000 / 80.0000
50.000 / 100.000
75.000 / 150.000
100.000 / 200.000
150.000 / 300.000
200.000 / 400.000

(I don't think a 100% increase from L1->L2 is that bad, given the blind/stack relation. It's just a way to add one more entry level.)
Abovementioned blind structure is the same for any of their tournaments regardless of starting stack. They only adjust the level times.
 
The people who organize the local tournaments here used to do 10k S'n'Gs and 15k tournaments, nowadays purely 50k deepstack tournaments, always with T100 as their lowest chip. It appears to somewhat work purely from a blind increases perspective. (They just doctor the level times and other rules to make these tournaments massively luck-dependent and rebuy/add-on-encouraging.... but that's a different story.)

100 / 200
200 / 400
300 / 600
400 / 800
500 / 1.000
break & color up 100
1.000 / 2.000
2.000 / 4.000
3.000 / 6.000
4.000 / 8.000
5.000 / 10.000
break & color up 500
7.000 / 14.000
10.000 / 20.000
15.000 / 30.000
20.000 / 40.000
30.000 / 60.000
40.000 / 80.0000
50.000 / 100.000
75.000 / 150.000
100.000 / 200.000
150.000 / 300.000
200.000 / 400.000

(I don't think a 100% increase from L1->L2 is that bad, given the blind/stack relation. It's just a way to add one more entry level.)
Abovementioned blind structure is the same for any of their tournaments regardless of starting stack. They only adjust the level times.
Why not color up the T500 chips at the same time as the T100s? No reason to keep them in play after L5 (500/1000) for another five levels where they aren't required....

Plus the T1000s are needed for exactly one level after the T500s are pulled, then they become obsolete for the rest of the event..... but are never removed.
 
Merely copied the exact blind structure they're using.

Yes, they keep most of the T1ks around until the very end. In the final phases with only very few players left however, they do color a bunch of them up to T10k chips. It's kinda random, dealer does it every now and then directly on the pot in a running hand.
 
Max (OP), T25s are neither good nor bad. You can develop a great tournament structure with any starting chip -- T.25, T1, T5, T25, T100, or other. It's the structure itself, not the starting chip value, that is critical. Like almost everything else, what you decide to start with is up to you, and everyone has an opinion.

While you can duplicate what the big casinos do (or something like the WSOP does), I've learned that they develop chips for something very different than a home game. Realize this: Casinos are selling you a dream, not a great player experience. They develop chip sets to allow them to maximize players while minimizing the combination of their cash outlay for chips and what it costs them to host and manage the game. The starting chips they use will be out the fastest, so they don't buy as many as a home game host. Casinos host tournaments to make a profit, and they will choose a chip set that helps maximize their profit. Their formula is very simple: Revenue - Costs = Profit. Make no mistake about this -- the casino does poker tournaments to make a profit, and that affects how they put chip sets together.

Home game hosts should look at it differently. Duplicating the "dream selling" doesn't make sense in a home game. Home hosts are not looking to make a profit (I'm assuming a normal home host and not someone who is being a casino on a small scale). Home hosts can look to make it a good experience for players. You want to build your game, but only to a certain point. I personally think that a good player experience that gets the kind of people you want coming back should be the primary objective of the host. So when buying a chip set, look for features other than maximizing efficient chip purchase and management.

Early on, I duplicated the WSOP Main Event chip stacks -- either 12x25, 7x100, 2x500, 3x1000, and 1x5000 (25 chips) or 8x25, 8x100, 3x1000, and 1x5000 (22 chips). The latter uses fewer chips. They work, but that doesn't make them the ideal home game set. It is very efficient for a host to manage, but not that efficient for players. They were easy to put up. In the 4x25 boxes I used, I could easily fit the starting and color up chips for a 10 player table into 3 boxes. Now I use 6 boxes, but it's not twice as many chips.

Generally, you want 10-12 each of the lowest two denoms. Which you use depends on your lowest denom. 12 works better if the next chip up is 4x and 10 works better if the next chip up is 5x. Any fewer and you probably have too much change making; any more and you either have too many chips, or you have players like me who tend to bet with the highest value chips and they wind up with a boatload of the smallest chips, which sort of leads to more change making. To make sure you understand, if the bet is 350, I'm most likely going to use 3x100 and 2x25. Others will use more T25s because they have a lot of them. Neither is right or wrong, but they do affect chip management.

Chip efficiency means different things to different players. Some think it means how many chips you must purchase to get a certain starting T-value; some think it means how few chips can you make the most bets with; others think other things. None of those is right or wrong, but they will lead you to different purchase configurations.

For a home game, the T25 is not the most efficient in most scenarios, but it's very workable. And players like using values they either see in the casino or on TV. As a host, you aren't bound to how casinos do it. So do what makes the most sense for your game. If you use the same values as the casinos, even if it's not the most efficient possible chip set, you can duplicate something familiar but add your how "good experience" flair to it.

For purchase, I'd play with what you think is your ideal starting T-value, but then I'd look at other things. What if your starting stacks increase (highly likely in my experience)? What if you find a formula that works very well for your game, whatever that means to you, but you didn't consider that in purchase and you can't get any more of those chips? Does your group like gentle blind increases (20-33%) or more aggressive increases (40-67%)? There can be other levels outside of that, but when looking at buying, I consider something above the most aggressive I expect to use.

Start with a budget. Here's how I consider a purchase. I start with looking at two sets. One starts with T25 and one with T100. For even more flexibility, if I wanted T1 and T5, I'd even consider having a single table tournament with those values, though I have only done that once. I look for 3 10-player tables since that is what I can do in my house. I look at starting T-values from 100BB to 2500BB (that's a wide spread, but it guarantees a very flexible set), but primarily look at 200BB to 500BB. Then I look at those sets as though I'd have to host one additional table (40 players) but am willing to have fewer chips per player. That means I'll end up with a set with probably more chips than most, but it will be very flexible.

Others starting with the same budget would decide to buy fewer of the best chips. It won't be as flexible, but their chips will be awesome! Neither approach is right or wrong, but there is an approach that fits your situation better.

General rules:
  1. Don't duplicate casinos exactly. Use what they do as a guide, but look at it like a home model and not a casino model.
  2. Look at a variety of scenarios.
  3. Look for sets that either you are likely to be able to get more of later, or buy big enough that you would have to get a much bigger venue and are willing to invest in a different chip set to accommodate that venue and structure.
Finally, remember the primary rule of this site -- the answer is always more chips.
 
Early on, I duplicated the WSOP Main Event chip stacks -- either 12x25, 7x100, 2x500, 3x1000, and 1x5000 (25 chips) or 8x25, 8x100, 3x1000, and 1x5000 (22 chips).

Should that second example have 2x500's in there too?
 
Most tournaments I play in start at 25/50, then 50/100, then 75/150, 100/200, 150/300 etc.
I think that's great if you're going to bring in a 25 ante (which usually seems to happen at the 100/200 level.)
If you're not going to use antes (and I agree that self dealt home tournaments probably shouldn't,) then I think there's a fair argument for eliminating the 25 chip. You could start with a double-length level of 100/100, and I don't think it would play much differently than a level of 25/50 followed by 50/100.
 
I think that's great if you're going to bring in a 25 ante

I didn't think of that ..... I noticed a ton of tourneys on TV have a 25 or 50 ante for quite a while and having the 25's has a double purpose

I think this convinces me to keep the 25's ... was going to dump them and get more 100's , not that these chips are expensive (this is my cheapo tourney set at 15c per chip)
 
Our lowest denom is T100, and we start 100/200 etc. It works perfectly, and everybody is used to this structure

However massive rebuys and add-ons are always expected
 
My local club had sit and goes once upon time where you just got 40 black starting at 100-200. No these were not designed to be deep.
 
But to echo the others T25 isn't good or bad, it's just common. And it's because of the WSOP starting at 25-50 and most casinos copying that.

You can use T1, T5, T100, or T1000 as a base and achieve similar results. Tournament stacks are just "points" with no cash value. What numbers you use matters less than the structure.
 
From a chippers perspective, I have the following take:

I prefer tournament sets that have an edge spot progression. As a chipper I like the larger denominations to be more interesting. Therefore, I also want to get more of them in play. I used to start with a T25, but unless you have a large number of players, you don't get a lot of the high denominations into play. I start with a T100 now, so I can have all the way up to T5000s in the starting stack and not just showing up at the end of the tournament.
 
FWIW, I’m switching my long-running two table tourney from a blind structure inherited from previous hosts, who started things at 100/200, to a more standard T25 structure.

My plan—so that there isn’t too much mass confusion and gross betting mistakes at first—was to simply quarter the existing structure, and keep roughly the same number of BBs in starting stacks.

There are a few levels which will require adjusting where dividing by 4 produces some odd results.

This has been a relatively deepstacked game (about 150 bigs to start) which takes 4-5 hours. However, I’ll probably start with a 12/12/6/4 scheme, which is effectively deeper than we have been playing.

I expect some of the weaker players who haven’t played much in T25 tourneys, and who have 100/200 ingrained in their heads, will make bet sizing mistakes initially—for example not realizing how huge a 1K bet is in early levels. So I want to avoid a revolt by giving everyone some cushion.

But in the long run I’ll probably adjust down to more like 150 bigs again. (There is a small on-time bonus and add-on in our game.)

Mainly curious if others have had hosting issues related to bumping “down” from 100/200 to 25/50 initial blinds.
 
Tag, I see your post as general, so I'm offering this general response. I think players will adjust quickly to the different ratios. Dividing by 4 is generally a good way to figure it out, but as you realize, it won't be exact.

I've primarily started with T25, but sometimes have multiplied by 4 and started with T100. It's worked fine. Players don't really seem to have trouble going between the two. I think most get that overall ratios are what really counts.

If you start stacks with 10 T100s, I'd get enough chips to start with 12 T25s, and 12 T100s. You can configure the T100s to start with fewer, but I've found that 12/12 to work really well.
 
Funny thing. I hate 25 tourney chips. Never seen one that did anything much for me. But I love the T20k structure. Basically the only one we do. But 25s only are on the table for 2 blinds. It's stupid, but we enjoy it.
 
Personally, I like the following structure : T20.000 starting stack :
50-100
75-150
100-200
150-300
-- remove 25 --
200-400
300-600
400-800
600-1200
800-1600
-- remove 100 -- or wait to remove them with the 500
1000-2000
1500-3000
-- remove 500 --
2000-4000
3000-6000
4000-8000
6000-12000
8000-16000
-- remove 1000 ---
10000-20000
...
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom