Tourney T100 Tournament Structure 2-Table Review (1 Viewer)

[ngmcs8203]

We are targeting a 2-table 16max person freezeout tournament this time. Preferably done in 4 hours with T20,000 starting stacks. I was hoping that the gradual acceleration of blind increases would make for a better experience for everyone early, while making the end a bit more intense. Starting stacks will be: 5xT100, 7xT500, 6xT1000, 2xT5000 since my set is limited to 126/101/126/101

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[Santa123]

Your chip breakdown is a bit tight. Having only 5 T100 chips will lead to a lot of change. Maybe you can add chips to your current set?

Regarding Blind Schedule I would just go with a standard schedule.

 

[Santa123]

By Standard I mean Big Blinds of 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 120, 1600, 2000, 3000, 4000 ...

Essentially you double the blind every other level.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Your chip breakdown is a bit tight. Having only 5 T100 chips will lead to a lot of change. Maybe you can add chips to your current set?

Good call. Since they're apache I can do a pretty easy add-on. I'm debating whether I go to 15/5/6/2 or 10/6/6/2. It's either I order 125 or 50 additional 100s.

 

[ngmcs8203]

By Standard I mean Big Blinds of 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 120, 1600, 2000, 3000, 4000 ...

Essentially you double the blind every other level.

I was trying to target under 40% in the first set of levels, then 40-50% in the second set of levels. Then 50-70% in the final set of levels. That way the longer you stay in, the more pressure you feel from the blind to stack ratio as well as the clock. Want it to feel like players can play comfortably at least through the first break and then need to start consider making moves afterward. All while keeping it around 4hrs.

 

[ngmcs8203]

@BGinGA

Do you have any tips with this one?

 

[buzzmonkey]

For T20k I do:

15 x 100
5 x 500
11 x 1000
1 x 5000

Limits the change making quite a bit and 32 chips is a nice stack size to start with.

 

[BGinGA]

Regarding the 16 x 20k starting stacks:

I advise going with 10/6/11/1, which puts an adequate number of workhorse chips (T100s and T1000s) into play immediately. If buying in 25-increment quantities, you will need to order 50 more chips of each (although only 34 more T100s are needed), and you can use 14 of your existing T5000s for all color-ups (4+10). Coloring up the T1000s won't be needed.
Set needed: 160/96/176/66

Regarding the blind structure:

With 16x20k= 320,000 chips in play with a BBA (100bb starting stacks with 100/200 opening blinds), you can safely estimate that the event will end no later than the 8000/16000 blind level.

A conventional uniform (~42% avg increase) blind schedule will need 15 total levels, which requires 15-minute blind level times to finish in 4 hours (including one break after L5, plus one color-up break after L10 to replace the T100/T500 chips with T5000s):

(level sb/bb/bba incr%)
L1 100/200
L2 100/200/200 67%
L3 100/300/300 40%
L4 200/400/400 43%
L5 300/600/600 50%
5-minute break
L6 400/800/800 33%
L7 600/1200/1200 50%
L8 800/1600/1600 33%
L9 1100/2200/2200 38%
L10 1500/3000/3000 36%
10-minute break, remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000/4000/4000 33%
L12 3000/6000/6000 50%
L13 4000/8000/8000 33%
L14 6000/12000/12000 50%
L15 8000/16000/16000 33%
Average increase is 42% with a range of 33%-50% (plus the 67% increase when BBA is added).

If wanting to skew this towards more play in the early levels while gradually ramping up pressure in the later stages of the event, go with:
20-minute levels for L1-L3
17-minute levels for L4-L6
15-minute levels for L7-L9
13-minute levels for L10-L12
10-minute levels for L13-L15

Or alternately, use the following blind level times for applying more time pressure during the mid-game and late levels:
20-minute levels for L1-L5
15-minute levels for L6-L10
10-minute levels for L11-L15

The shorter level times are offset by fewer remaining players, so that the average number of hands played per blind level remains relatively the same throughout the event.

By my estimation, your proposed blind schedule and times will finish no later than L13-L14, but will take 13 to 29 minutes longer to complete. Deducting 1 minute per blind level will be necessary to finish in 4 hours.

And to compare apples to apples, note that the actual blind/ante increases in your schedule are listed below:
L2 67%
L3 60%
L4 25%
L5 30%
L6 31%
L7 47%
L8 40%
L9 43%
L10 50%
L11 73%
L12 54%
L13 60%
L14 56%
which is an average increase of 48.9% with a range of 25%-73%.

Recommended changes:
L3 100/300/300
L11 2000/5000/5000

Those two changes eliminate the low 25% and high 73% increase outliers, smoothing out the structure (48.8% avg with a 30%-60% range).

 

[ngmcs8203]

Regarding the 16 x 20k starting stacks:

I advise going with 10/6/11/1, which puts an adequate number of workhorse chips (T100s and T1000s) into play immediately. If buying in 25-increment quantities, you will need to order 50 more chips of each (although only 34 more T100s are needed), and you can use 14 of your existing T5000s for all color-ups (4+10). Coloring up the T1000s won't be needed.
Set needed: 160/96/176/66

Regarding the blind structure:

With 16x20k= 320,000 chips in play with a BBA (100bb starting stacks with 100/200 opening blinds), you can safely estimate that the event will end no later than the 8000/16000 blind level.

A conventional uniform (~42% avg increase) blind schedule will need 15 total levels, which requires 15-minute blind level times to finish in 4 hours (including one break after L5, plus one color-up break after L10 to replace the T100/T500 chips with T5000s):

(level sb/bb/bba incr%)
L1 100/200
L2 100/200/200 67%
L3 100/300/300 40%
L4 200/400/400 43%
L5 300/600/600 50%
5-minute break
L6 400/800/800 33%
L7 600/1200/1200 50%
L8 800/1600/1600 33%
L9 1100/2200/2200 38%
L10 1500/3000/3000 36%
10-minute break, remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000/4000/4000 33%
L12 3000/6000/6000 50%
L13 4000/8000/8000 33%
L14 6000/12000/12000 50%
L15 8000/16000/16000 33%
Average increase is 42% with a range of 33%-50% (plus the 67% increase when BBA is added).

If wanting to skew this towards more play in the early levels while gradually ramping up pressure in the later stages of the event, go with:
20-minute levels for L1-L3
17-minute levels for L4-L6
15-minute levels for L7-L9
13-minute levels for L10-L12
10-minute levels for L13-L15

Or alternately, use the following blind level times for applying more time pressure during the mid-game and late levels:
20-minute levels for L1-L5
15-minute levels for L6-L10
10-minute levels for L11-L15

The shorter level times are offset by fewer remaining players, so that the average number of hands played per blind level remains relatively the same throughout the event.

By my estimation, your proposed blind schedule and times will finish no later than L13-L14, but will take 13 to 29 minutes longer to complete. Deducting 1 minute per blind level will be necessary to finish in 4 hours.

And to compare apples to apples, note that the actual blind/ante increases in your schedule are listed below:
L2 67%
L3 60%
L4 25%
L5 30%
L6 31%
L7 47%
L8 40%
L9 43%
L10 50%
L11 73%
L12 54%
L13 60%
L14 56%
which is an average increase of 48.9% with a range of 25%-73%.

Recommended changes:
L3 100/300/300
L11 2000/5000/5000

Those two changes eliminate the low 25% and high 73% increase outliers, smoothing out the structure (48.8% avg with a 30%-60% range).

Thanks for all the details. Glad I wasn’t too far off.

 

[BGinGA]

Gave this some more thought, and wanted to add the following:

With the 1-minute decrease in blind level times (to keep the event at 4 hours) and the two blind level changes mentioned above (L3 and L11), your structure breaks down like this:

-- first 5 levels (95 minutes) avg 45% increases
-- middle 5 levels (85 minutes) avg 42% increases
-- last ~3.5 levels (49 minutes) avg 63% increases

This actually plays out with a softer middle-game feel with a turbo finish (which is fine, imo), but I'm not sure that actually accomplishes your stated goal:

I was trying to target under 40% in the first set of levels, then 40-50% in the second set of levels. Then 50-70% in the final set of levels. That way the longer you stay in, the more pressure you feel from the blind to stack ratio as well as the clock.

I think the follow structure (deferring the BBA until L6) will lower early aggression from the blinds and make the beginning seem softer (as desired), while escalating blinds and using shorter levels in the middle game and the late levels:

19-minute levels:
L1 100 200 --
L2 100 300 33%
L3 100 400 25%
L4 200 500 40%
L5 300 600 29%
95 minutes, with 4 increases averaging 31.8% (range = 25%-40%)

17-minute levels:
L6 300 600 600 67% (due to added BBA)
L7 400 900 900 46%
L8 700 1300 1300 50%
L9 1000 2000 2000 52%
L10 1500 3000 3000 50%
85 minutes, with 5 increases averaging 53.0% (range = 46%-67%)

15-minute levels:
L11 2000 5000 5000 60%
L12 4000 8000 8000 67%
L13 6000 13000 13000 60%
L14 10000 20000 20000 56%
~49 minutes, with 4 increases averaging 61.4% (range = 56%-67%)

Assuming completion in 13.5 levels (or less), that puts max total playing time at 3:49 plus the two breaks.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Gave this some more thought, and wanted to add the following:

With the 1-minute decrease in blind level times (to keep the event at 4 hours) and the two blind level changes mentioned above (L3 and L11), your structure breaks down like this:

-- first 5 levels (95 minutes) avg 45% increases
-- middle 5 levels (85 minutes) avg 42% increases
-- last ~3.5 levels (49 minutes) avg 63% increases

This actually plays out with a softer middle-game feel with a turbo finish (which is fine, imo), but I'm not sure that actually accomplishes your stated goal:


I think the follow structure (deferring the BBA until L6) will lower early aggression from the blinds and make the beginning seem softer (as desired), while escalating blinds and using shorter levels in the middle game and the late levels:

19-minute levels:
L1 100 200 --
L2 100 300 33%
L3 100 400 25%
L4 200 500 40%
L5 300 600 29%
95 minutes, with 4 increases averaging 31.8% (range = 25%-40%)

17-minute levels:
L6 300 600 600 67% (due to added BBA)
L7 400 900 900 46%
L8 700 1300 1300 50%
L9 1000 2000 2000 52%
L10 1500 3000 3000 50%
85 minutes, with 5 increases averaging 53.0% (range = 46%-67%)

15-minute levels:
L11 2000 5000 5000 60%
L12 4000 8000 8000 67%
L13 6000 13000 13000 60%
L14 10000 20000 20000 56%
~49 minutes, with 4 increases averaging 61.4% (range = 56%-67%)

Assuming completion in 13.5 levels (or less), that puts max total playing time at 3:49 plus the two breaks.

How do you think the two different structures play for an average to below average skill group? We have a few players who will have played in only a couple of low stakes tournaments and a handful who have played casino live for low stakes. Skill level fluctuates but I’d say the majority are novice. Would a gradual increase be better so that the middle to late stages is filled with the better skilled players? Or, do you think that the softer middle would allow for the less skilled to feel like they have a better chance of lasting deeper into the tournament?

Or, is it pretty much the same and variance will be a bigger factor than the two structure options?

 

[BGinGA]

Novice players have a better experience when blinds start low and increase more slowly, as they tend to either fold a lot (and get blinded out) or limp/play a lot of hands (and lose chips rather quickly). They get more bang-for-buck in such events, gaining experience (but not necessarily getting better).

Imo, novice players will get chewed up in an event with a soft middle-game. They won't have sufficient chips to just try to survive vs experienced players.

@Poker Zombie may have additional insight here.

 

[Poker Zombie]

BG's description of novice players is apt. It is very common for new players to limp. Raises come rarely, and when they happen are min raises.

You will lose the bulk of novice players when the BB (or the BB+BBA) is 1/16th the starting stack (level 6 in your proposed structure and BG's first proposal, level 7 in BG's second proposal).

 

[ngmcs8203]

So I’m running with your gradual increase option, @BGinGA but was wondering how adding a single rebuy and single addon option affects time. How would you calculate that without knowing how many more chips are being added to the pool. I was thinking about a buyin of $60, $2 rebuy for T20k, $20 for T20k addon and if you still have your one rebuy token you could turn it in for an additional T10k. Is that too much in chips?

 

[ngmcs8203]

Ok so I probably should have ordered more chips to fill in this set so that I could comfortably host a 2 table rebuy/addon T20k tournament with an on time bonus.

Current Chip Count
T25	126
T100	176
T500	101
T1,000	176
T5,000	101
T25,000	31
T100,000	1

It looks like I might need at least 25 more 1ks and 5ks unless I bring 25ks into the game at the first break and use the extras to fill in, hoping that a few players who do an addon is deep enough to take on a few 25ks. I don't think thats a good idea with blinds only at 700 after the first break. I'm thinking I will need to lower the starting stack or order more chips.

 

[BGinGA]

So I’m running with your gradual increase option, @BGinGA but was wondering how adding a single rebuy and single addon option affects time. How would you calculate that without knowing how many more chips are being added to the pool. I was thinking about a buyin of $60, $2 rebuy for T20k, $20 for T20k addon and if you still have your one rebuy token you could turn it in for an additional T10k. Is that too much in chips?

I think ^that is way too many chips. With 20k starting stacks (which equals 200bb, plenty deep already), you really don't add much value to the structure with a huge 20k add-on plus a 10k unused re-buy redemption.

I'd structure it as follows:

$60/20k buy-in
$60/20k single re-buy (cooler insurance)
$20/10k add-on (optional)
free/5k add-on for unused re-buy chip

(So all-in for either $140/50k, $120/40k, $80/35k, or $60/25k, and it's pretty balanced at 0.28c/chip, 0.30c/chip, 0.23c/chip, or 0.25c/chip -- meaning that purchasing the add-on is a good value while rebuying is -ev, but all decisions have a relatively minor impact on equity).

The $20/10k add-on adds additional cash to the prize pool (and mostly just helps the shorter stacks survive a little longer after the end of re-buys), while the free 5k add-on gives the re-buy chip some actual value and helps discourages crazy early play.... and neither will significantly skew the value of the chips already in play.


As for added time, when using a good deep blind structure, I disregard re-buys (typically only ~25% of the field size), but I usually add half of the expected aďd-ons (typically 90% of field size).

So for 16 players, the calculation would be ((16 × 20k)+(16 × 10k × 0.9 ÷ 2)) ÷ 20 = 19,600 as the big blind amount of the final blind level of the event. Note that this is only marginally bigger than the base (16 x 20k ÷ 20) calculation of 16,000 with no add-ons, and basically identical if you added re-buys into the equation: (16+4) x 20k ÷ 20 = 20,000.

In reality, re-buys and add-ons will generally add one blind level at most, but usually they still just follow the basic end-time calculation guideline and don't add significant additional length to the event.

It looks like I might need at least 25 more 1ks and 5ks. I'm thinking I will need to lower the starting stack or order more chips.

Ordering more chips is always the answer.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Haha thanks for the additional help.