Tourney Structure Assist (2 Viewers)

[Ronoh]

Calling @BGinGA

Normally don’t have a problem formatting my own structures but this one I am struggling with.

10-man T100,000, run time is only 3-3 1/2 hours (20/20/23/13).

I don’t care what the blinds start out at but would like at least a few levels using T100.

I would like the T500 to be used at least a few levels after removing the T100.

Will introduce T25Ks during T1000 color up, once it hits 3-handed I’ll remove some T5000 to make endgame bank of 100xT5000 and 20xT25K (additional 25Ks if anyone rebuys).

I’d prefer 15 minute levels but don’t mind dumbing them down to 14/13/12 to make room for additional level(s). Dumbing down late rounds to 10m is also an option.

Struggling to come up with a structure that seems “right”.

 

[BeesKnees]

Add-on?

Edit: caught the part about rebuys.

 

[BGinGA]

I think this fits all of your parameters nicely:

10 players w/re-buys
15-minute blind levels
T100,000 stacks (500bb)
59% avg. blind increases (50%-67%)
estimated 3:15 max. run time (plus breaks)

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 200 300
L3 300 500
L4 400 800
L5 600 1200
remove T100 chips
L6 1000 2000
L7 1500 3000
L8 2500 5000
L9 4000 8000
L10 6000 12000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L11 10000 20000
L12 15000 30000
L13 25000 50000 *** EOT
L14 40000 80000
L15 60000 120,000
remove T5000 chips
L16 100,000 200,000
L17 150,000 300,000
L18 250,000 500,000
remove T25000 chips
L19 400,000 800,000
L20 600,000 1,200,000
L21 1,000,000 2,000,000
L22 1,500,000 3,000,000

L2 and L3 use the specified small blind amounts to maintain the consistency of 50%-67% increases (total blinds, not bb) throughout the entire structure.

You can optionally remove the T500 chips after L8 if desired.

Levels 16-22 included for optional larger fields and/or larger starting stacks, including elimination of T100 chips and starting at L6. Also supports T5000-base with T5M starting stacks, starting at L11.

 

[Ronoh]

Thanks Dave. I had something pretty similar worked out yet both yours and my own are still throwing me.

L6 1000 2000
L7 1500 3000
L8 2500 5000
L9 4000 8000
L10 6000 12000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L11 10000 20000
L12 15000 30000
L13 25000 50000

It’s here that does it. Has a nice smooth bump for a little while and then just goes nuts. Looking at both blinds it jumps by:
1500
3000
4500
6000

And then the shit hits the fan with

12,000
15,000
30,000

I get it works mathematically but it just looks and feels “wrong”. Price one pays for trying to a) use T100s and b) get a million chips in play in a three hour single table tourney

Think I’ll likely add in an 8K/16K and a 20K/40K and shave levels down to 14 minutes. Thanks

 

[Ronoh]

Actually I’m leaning towards cutting stacks in half in the interest of running a better game.

 

[BGinGA]

Thanks Dave. I had something pretty similar worked out yet both yours and my own are still throwing me.

It’s here that does it. Has a nice smooth bump for a little while and then just goes nuts. Looking at both blinds it jumps by:
1500
3000
4500
6000

And then the shit hits the fan with

12,000
15,000
30,000

I get it works mathematically but it just looks and feels “wrong”. Price one pays for trying to a) use T100s and b) get a million chips in play in a three hour single table tourney

Think I’ll likely add in an 8K/16K and a 20K/40K and shave levels down to 14 minutes. Thanks

Try this one on for size. Bumps from L11-L16 on are now reduced to:
6.000
6,000
7,500
7,500
15,000
15,000


10 players with re-buys
T100K stacks (500bb)
45% avg increases
- 50%-67% for L1-L10 with 15-minute levels
- 20%-33% for L11-end with 10-minute levels
est. 3:30 maximum run time (plus breaks)

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 200 300
L3 300 500
L4 400 800
L5 600 1200
remove T100 chips
L6 1000 2000
L7 1500 3000
L8 2500 5000
L9 4000 8000
optional break
L10 6000 12000
L11 8000 16000
L12 10000 20000
L13 12500 25000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L14 15000 30000
L15 20000 40000
L16 25000 50000 *** EOT
L17 30000 60000
L18 40000 80000
L19 50000 100000

It will run 4 hours if keeping all level times at 15 minutes, or 3:30 if dropping to 10 minutes at L11.

 

[Ronoh]

Thanks for the help, decided to shave levels down to 12m and going with the following

100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
(Remove T100)
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
2500/5000
(Remove T500)
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
12000/24000
(Remove T1000)
15000/30000
20000/40000
25000/50000 **EOT**
30000/60000
40000/80000
50000/100000

 

[Poker Zombie]

From personal experience, 12 minute blinds is a bare minimum, but it works. I occasionally get a level than ends before a full orbit, but it's pretty close.

Speed / efficiency of your dealers and players that tank when nobody has been eliminated will vary your mileage, but generally I find 12 minutes to be acceptable (but fast).

It's effectively a Deepstack Turbo! ::

 

[Ronoh]

From personal experience, 12 minute blinds is a bare minimum, but it works. I occasionally get a level than ends before a full orbit, but it's pretty close.

Speed / efficiency of your dealers and players that tank when nobody has been eliminated will vary your mileage, but generally I find 12 minutes to be acceptable (but fast).

It's effectively a Deepstack Turbo! ::

Agreed. His tables are on the small side so we will actually be starting on two five handed tables until the first elimination and being it's only ten handed anyways the number of hands per orbit will likely go up with each elimination. I really didn't like dropping levels to 12m but I prefer it over unnecessarily big blind jumps deep in the game

 

[andy699669]

I'd start with 300/600 instead and that 100/200 to 200/400 is not a bump, but rather hard hit, 500BB to 250 in 12-15 minutes.

 

[Ronoh]

I'd start with 300/600 instead and that 100/200 to 200/400 is not a bump, but rather hard hit, 500BB to 250 in 12-15 minutes.

So you’d rather start with 166 BBs than to take the “hard hit” of dropping from 500 to 250 after the first level? Personally I’ve never understood the desire to avoid a 100% jump from level one to level two. IMO at the smallest blind levels that really has nothing to do with the math of a well run structure, it’s more of an OCD issue with consistency.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I agree - the first 100% jump isn't about a big jump. It's batting practice. Sure, the first level is near meaningless from a math perspective, but it is important from the psychological perspective. If you don't play frequently, it gives you a level to warm up with. If you are seasoned, you can feel out opponents with little chance that you are risking too much. In a home game, the host is often still putting out fires after the clock has been started, or they have to make the drastic shift from "friendly host" mode to "time to take your money" mode.

Level 1 - It's not the stacks that count.

 

[Ronoh]

8000/16000
10000/20000
12000/24000
(Remove T1000)
15000/30000

I’m also switching this to:
8000/16000
(Remove T1000)
10000/20000
10000/25000
15000/30000

Per orbit drop is only T1000 and at that point with a bank of only 40-50 BBs the T1000 will just be in the way.

 

[andy699669]

On second thought, 200/400 is not a bad start.

 

[moose]

What is the math that determines EOT

 

[indy18]

What is the math that determines EOT

I've been lurking and researching to develop a blind structure for an office charity game.

I'm pretty sure the expected end is when total chips in play = 20 big blinds.

 

[BGinGA]

So you’d rather start with 166 BBs than to take the “hard hit” of dropping from 500 to 250 after the first level? Personally I’ve never understood the desire to avoid a 100% jump from level one to level two. IMO at the smallest blind levels that really has nothing to do with the math of a well run structure, it’s more of an OCD issue with consistency.

I agree - the first 100% jump isn't about a big jump. It's batting practice. Sure, the first level is near meaningless from a math perspective, but it is important from the psychological perspective. If you don't play frequently, it gives you a level to warm up with. If you are seasoned, you can feel out opponents with little chance that you are risking too much. In a home game, the host is often still putting out fires after the clock has been started, or they have to make the drastic shift from "friendly host" mode to "time to take your money" mode.

Level 1 - It's not the stacks that count.

It's not an OCD issue -- it's a combination of both making the early levels meaningful, and allotting the available time to levels where meaningful play will occur.

Once starting stack sizes reach 200bb or greater, the importance of all early play is significantly reduced in terms of a) affecting individual stack sizes, and b) influencing the outcome of the event. This is compounded by the overall length of the event; deep stack tournaments that last many hours or days are impacted very little by events that occur in the early levels.

Not so for shorter events lasting roughly six hours or less, however. Allotting the small amount of allotted time to levels where meaningful play actually occurs is critical to helping prevent the 'shove-fest' mode feeling that nearly everyone despises as the event reaches the latter stages.

A good portion of that work depends on structuring the early levels properly, so that the time is available to be used later when it really matters.

That is why 100% increases are pointless in the early levels -- much better to start with fewer bb and use that extra time 'wasted' later in the event.

 

[BSteck]

What is the math that determines EOT

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/big-blinds-to-estimate-tournament-end.26300/#post-486524