split spots on Diamond Square mold from CPC? (4 Viewers)

[warma]

I don't know, I looked pretty closely at that picture and it seems like a lot of those are just squeezed spots. Squeezes shouldn't be included with splits, because that makes the problem look worse than it is.

View attachment 629531

None of these are split, and there's plenty more in this same pic that also aren't split.

Fair. Happy to go back and re-look. Some are probably legit squeezed and some are
barely split.

EDIT: I can’t edit my original post- see post below for updated pictures and numbers.

 

[timinater]

I think the heart of the issue goes back to what @detroitdad was saying. There is bound to be some angry customers if there is no warning or clarity on a potential issue.

I don't think any chip manufacturer is without a "defect" of some type every now and then, but it sure would be good to have an indication of what the chance of the issue is so that the customer can make the decision on if they want to take the risk.

I haven't ordered from CPC, and likely won't due to all the minor issues that I see in their sets - same thing kept me from ordering from BCC when they were around, I am just too fussy to spend thousands of dollars and not be close to totally satisfied. This is not a shot at CPC, just an understanding that my expectations are potentially unrealistic.

I do have a couple thousand chips from ASM and there are definitely some issues with some of them - I have two racks of $0.50 chips that are a full chip higher in a barrel than any other colour. Do I use them? No, because it drives me nuts. Would any of the players in my game notice? Nope. By that definition, they sure are not a defect, but to my standards they are. If I was told that the chip had a 50% chance of being thicker, I wouldn't have ordered them.

Height variance has always been an issue and I remember a discussion with Jim B where it was said to mix all the chips together and they would average out to similar heights - that works within a colour, but doesn't within a set.

At the end of the day, I would just want to go into the deal with the manufacturer knowing what my expectations are and if their product is in line with them. Not saying my expectations are what the manufacturer has to meet, but a clear understanding of what I expect vs what they can make is key to a successful deal.

HPC had a disclaimer on their site in regards to the regular manufacturing issues with BCC - pics of all the potential issues and what was considered a defect, and what was considered acceptable. It was likely a result of people trying to return chips they weren't happy with but were totally fine in the eyes of BCC. End result of the pics was that you knew what you were buying and went in as a fully informed customer.

I don't disagree with any of that - just suggesting that the solution to this particular issue could potentially be no solution at all. It just may not be feasible to produce these in a way that meets customer expectations, is a profitable product AND at an acceptable price.

 

[warma]

I don't disagree with any of that - just suggesting that the solution to this particular issue could potentially be no solution at all. It just may not be feasible to produce these in a way that meets customer expectations, is a profitable product AND at an acceptable price.

Split trimoon is better than no moon.

 

[beaver]

Split trimoon is better than no moon.

To each their own I guess. If I knew I would get split spots in an order of trimoons, I would choose something different.

 

[warma]

I don't know, I looked pretty closely at that picture and it seems like a lot of those are just squeezed spots. Squeezes shouldn't be included with splits, because that makes the problem look worse than it is.

View attachment 629531

None of these are split, and there's plenty more in this same pic that also aren't split.

Thanks for the comment. Here you go. In the pursuit of truth and good info. Happy to clarify to make sure I’m accurate- don’t want to mislead or over-state an issue. Again- not something I consciously noticed until this thread.

Little over 6 barrels of true splits (upper right).
2-3 barrels to super squeezed (but still connected to varying degrees).
2-3 barrels of squeezed.
Squeezed are on the right of the left set of racks. I thought I had a better image that lines them up- sorry.

 

[Jasap47]

Curious, i checked all 600 of my tri moons.

Not a spilt in the bunch, just some that were close. Then i checked the rest:

So out of 150 of the green $25s, edge spot3d14, 14 had these small splits but notice it is only on the black spot. Out of 400 of the white, only 7 had split all on retro red spot except 1. When i rotated them:

It doesnt seem to go thru whole chip, also notice the tail like effect, very pronounced on that one retro blue spot. Could it be a result of the chip being twisted during pressing? Thats what it kinda looks like to me. Thoughts?

 

[Meddler2]

Curious, i checked all 600 of my tri moons. View attachment 629763Not a spilt in the bunch, just some that were close. Then i checked the rest:View attachment 629764So out of 150 of the green $25s, edge spot3d14, 14 had these small splits but notice it is only on the black spot. Out of 400 of the white, only 7 had split all on retro red spot except 1. When i rotated them:View attachment 629772It doesnt seem to go thru whole chip, also notice the tail like effect, very pronounced on that one retro blue spot. Could it be a result of the chip being twisted during pressing? Thats what it kinda looks like to me. Thoughts?

Great observation on the "twisting". Not sure if that's a possibility but looks like that could create the "tail" effect.

 

[GianThaMan]

Curious, i checked all 600 of my tri moons. View attachment 629763Not a spilt in the bunch, just some that were close. Then i checked the rest:View attachment 629764So out of 150 of the green $25s, edge spot3d14, 14 had these small splits but notice it is only on the black spot. Out of 400 of the white, only 7 had split all on retro red spot except 1. When i rotated them:View attachment 629772It doesnt seem to go thru whole chip, also notice the tail like effect, very pronounced on that one retro blue spot. Could it be a result of the chip being twisted during pressing? Thats what it kinda looks like to me. Thoughts?

It has nothing to do with chips being twisted, it’s the compression that pushes the spot colors out or the base color in, resulting in either a convex or concave shape. The mold cup keeps the edges mostly straight, which is why the spots look more like they’ve been ‘twisted’ rather than pushed out. This happens with all clay chip manufacturers, but less so with lighter pressing, which is why TRK and Paulson chips have a much more subtle version of it. The splits would occur when the middle of the spot has been pushed in and the base color sorta seeps into the spot, leading to this.

 

[Outkicked]

Yikes! First I’ve ever heard of or have seen on the forum

 

[bigblind]

following

 

[Jasap47]

Cool good info Gian. Is there no easy fix for it? I totally understand its part of the process, and the splits i got in my customs i didnt even notice. It as well was a very low number relative to the total chip count. What has been posted in this thread is something else. Curious when some of these sets were recieved? Mine the order was put in last April, and got them mid September. Maybe we can narrow down a rough time frame when it started becoming more pronounced?

 

[Venturalvn]

I'm surprised this has to do with the mold. When I ordered the Hourglass mold from ASM every single one of my 312 and 414 spots came split, along with a majority of my 3d14. I had to send back 3 racks due to the wrong color being made, and when they returned from ASM 2 months later the 3 racks were all perfect.

When I did an on with the current CPC ownership in 2018, all racks came out crystal clear on the same mold with the same spots. As far as I know the cups are the same as they were in 2008, in which I received both perfect and split spot racks within months of each other.

 

[Meddler2]

I'm surprised this has to do with the mold. When I ordered the Hourglass mold from ASM every single one of my 312 and 414 spots came split, along with a majority of my 3d14. I had to send back 3 racks due to the wrong color being made, and when they returned from ASM 2 months later the 3 racks were all perfect.

When I did an on with the current CPC ownership in 2018, all racks came out crystal clear on the same mold with the same spots. As far as I know the cups are the same as they were in 2008, in which I received both perfect and split spot racks within months of each other.

This lends credence to operator error?

 

[Venturalvn]

This lends credence to operator error?

I have no idea of the inner workings, I just find it odd. Same as the "speed bump" issue. If it's mechanical then it should pretty consistent. But I'm in software engineering not mechanical, so I'm just some asshole on the internet.

I am not a financial advisor and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Do not use the information here as evidence towards any operational conspiracies.

 

[viet rounder]

I suspect part of the problem here is our tastes. We want brighter colors and CPC has worked to comply. I’ve never seen better pinks, oranges, blues and even yellows from them until recently, stunning chips really. And the tri moon spot because we wanted it. All the while they are using the same equipment that may not be ideal for all of our new requests. It may not be realistic to want it all and no split spots, unless customers are willing to pay for a possible 40% error rate, if these are even considered errors.

 

[mipevi]

I seem to remember reading that different color combinations could have optimal temperature/pressure points that differ from others. Maybe how fast the temp/pressure is applied also plays a part with split spots? Different molds could also have different optimal pressure points, creating a complex equation that would make any non-JimB’s head spin. Or maybe I dreamed all of it, who knows...

 

[Sprouty]

I seem to remember reading that different color combinations could have optimal temperature/pressure points that differ from others. Maybe how fast the temp/pressure is applied also plays a part with split spots? Different molds could also have different optimal pressure points, creating a complex equation that would make any non-JimB’s head spin. Or maybe I dreamed all of it, who knows...

I've heard different colors have different melting points.

Seems that if an edge spot has a lower melting point than a base it would lead to split spots as the base holds together vs the softer spot.

 

[CraigT78]

This was my pick of the week.

 

[Sprouty]

This was my pick of the week.
View attachment 629862

Any split spots on those?

 

[CraigT78]

Any split spots on those?

Shoot. Wrong thread

 

[Sprouty]

Okay, so I ordered 617 $5 chips and received 624 chips. Out of the 624 I have noted the following issues.

51 split all the way through
33 split almost all the way through
37 questionable
32 acceptable/very slight splits
2 broken chips

Split all the way through

Almost all the way through

Questionable

Slight/acceptable

So out of the total chips and factoring in the extras I guess you could say I have about 118 chips that I'm not real pleased with. Roughly 19% of my $5 chips. Or 13.5% if I am being too picky and exclude the questionable chips.

I'm really not trying to be negative as I love the way my set turned out other than the split spots. I just didn't expect it and if I would have known I would have considered ordering extras. I split my order by denom across multiple runs to avoid any possible color variation as color variation tilts me, but now if I replace them I'm not sure if color variation will be a factor. In all honesty the splits will likely just sit on the back shelf.

 

[warma]

Odd how it’s just one spot.

 

[BGinGA]

I seem to remember reading that different color combinations could have optimal temperature/pressure points that differ from others. Maybe how fast the temp/pressure is applied also plays a part with split spots? Different molds could also have different optimal pressure points, creating a complex equation that would make any non-JimB’s head spin. Or maybe I dreamed all of it, who knows...

^ This matches up with my understanding. JimB went through quite a thorough investigation and subsequent process improvements and tweaking to address spot splitting issues back in the ASM days.

A bunch of new molds, materials/colors, and spot patterns have been added since then. Not unexpected that some process modifications may be needed to accommodate all of the new possible combinations and needed to adhere to the old standards of acceptability.

 

[ConsensualPresidency]

“I’LL SPLIT YOUR SPOTS!!”

-David right now, probably

 

[mipevi]

I know that with BCC (and in my experience with Paulson too) the splits were usually with shallow inserts. Especially BCC’s 614 and 8V were prone to splits. But CPC’s high-temperature, high-pressure way of making chips introduces a lot more variables and thus requires tweaking based on individual chip designs to avoid split spots. This also explains why the splits aren’t limited to just the shallow inserts, although I would expect shallow inserts to still be the more problematic ones. With all the new additions CPC has made available, maybe sometimes those variables don’t even have enough overlap to avoid splits completely (3moon and DG base with lower melting point inserts = perfect storm?).

Just an observation, but TRK used shallow inserts all the time, yet somehow managed to avoid the split spot issues apparent on BCC/Paulson chips. I wonder how they did that...

Edit: Disclaimer, I’m just spitballing here and have no experience actually making chips. Don’t be cancelling orders because of me LOL.

 

[MikesDad]

Thought I'd add some positivity to the thread. Of the ~3600 ASM/CPC chips I own in 3 different sets,
only 1 set has any sort of split spots.

These are on the MD-50 (Diamond Square) mold, 314 spots, 1250 chip set.
The $1 chips are Bright White base / Dark Blue.
Pretty sure these were from ASM - Las Vegas which is a step down (IMHO) from current CPC operations
There are about 60 with split spots out of 340 chips $1s. Of those 60, 30 were noticeable/unacceptable and the other 30
were very slight. The worst of these are pictured below.

There were 20 / 340 Red/Black chips with tiny splits. You probably wouldn't notice some of them if you didn't know to look (the picture makes them
look larger I think)

The other sets (2300+ chips from old ASM and current CPC) have no split spots at all. These sets also include Bright White base as well as DG Green, DG Peacock, DG Tiger and DG Pink base colors on the H-mold.

Just my 0.02

 

[LeGold]

One good reason why split-spots are bad (if we ignore the aesthetics which to some of us are as important) - counting chips becomes much harder.

 

[pegasus_0135]

To me, this is 2 things - 1) A quality control issue, and 2) A process issue. With so much variance in the chips, there has to be a problem somewhere.

 

[ninedeuce]

I've contacted David to see if it's an issue that can be predicted with spot choices/color combinations.

With nearly $8000 in chips across the 3 orders...I'm quite nervous at the moment.

Good idea. Did you get a response?

 

[davislane]

Had this Barrel of Derby Gran Hundos arrive todays. It seems Paulson also suffers from spot splitting. All 4 red spots on the chip are affected whilst the blue spots are mostly "normal"

Also had this barrel of hundos. Everything is fine though.