Tourney Smaller starting stack, shorter levels or bigger level jumps? (2 Viewers)

[AH77]

I ran a 10 person STT (1 rebuy/player for first 6 levels) a few weeks ago and found that it was running kinda clunky. We started with 200bbs, 20 min levels, and small, incremental jumps in blinds each level.

At first, 20 min levels seemed too short since we didn’t even make it one revolution around the table before the blinds went up so the table agreed to increase each level to 30 mins for more play. Towards the middle/end of the tournament, play seemed to be dragging and a lot of players seemed to be getting restless.

Being that most players at my game are inexperienced/recreational players, what do you think would be the best intervention to help play move along more smoothly while also not turning it into a turbo?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Personally there's no way I limit starting stacks cause my players are similar to yours. I prefer longer early levels so people get comfortable and feel like they're playing, and the later levels can be shorter; the longer levels help the better players, I'm fine winnowing them down to put pressure on everyone.

People loving buying in and playing for a while, but it loses its luster. Make sure you've got your breaks in, and don't be afraid to differ the blind level timing if needed.

 

[DaneWoj]

Not sure if it works like this but double the level length and cut stacks in half? I’m becoming an advocate for meaningful poker nearly from level 1.

 

[Santa123]

Switch to cash games ;-)

My blind schedule starts with only 100BB but the first two blinds are twice as long as the rest of the levels.

20 or 25 min levels.

Starting stack T5000

SB/BB/BBA
25/50
25/50
50/100
50/100
75/150
75/150/150
100/200/200
150/300/300
......

The idea is that in the first levels you have longer blind levels without starting too deep. Starting deeper is a waste of time in my opinion. The level duration realy depends on how long you want your tourney runs.

 

[upNdown]

It's pretty subjective. But if you're looking for opinions, I'd keep the deeper starting stack and the longer levels.
Big jumps stink, but if people don't want to play for eight or ten hours, something's got to give.

 

[RagingAZN]

As others have said, it really depends on the makeup of your players, their playing styles, overall structure and sometimes just how the cards fall on the night.

We do a 20m level, 200 BB, T25 structure with rebuys which I got from here and sometimes we run 4 hours, sometimes 3 and sometimes 5+.

30m is probably a bit too long for a recreational player STT. 2 mins per hand on average is probably where you want to be. Are you using 2 decks to play?

 

[CSW]

The best solution depends in large part on what your specific blind structure is. I’d first check to make sure your blind jumps are relatively uniform. If the blind increases are inconsistent (e.g., sometimes 80% jumps, sometimes 20%), it can make things feel very uneven (rushed at some times and dragging at others).

If that is not an issue, I agree that one solution can be varying the length of your rounds, though I prefer to base this in number of players at the table — rather than shortening the rounds at a certain blind level. For example, when you have 6 or fewer players at a table, you could cut the level times by 35-50% (down to 10 or 15 minutes from 20). I would otherwise leave the level times alone. Twenty minutes should be enough for a 10 person table to get through one orbit on average; if not, you might need to do something to speed up the dealing (dedicated dealers, shuffling behind, etc.).

If you still need more changes, I’d move to reducing starting stack. I seem to be an outlier on PCF, but I don’t see a need for 200 bb starting stacks, particularly if you don’t double the blinds between level 1 and 2 (for example, I suggest going from 50/100 to 75/150 instead of straight to 100/200). Starting stacks of 100-150 bbs should play fine as long as your structure is slow and gradual enough to allow for lots of play in that 40-60 bb stack level before things inevitably get short. In my opinion, the downfall of many structures is that they make deep starting stacks the primary goal, and then they have to have use short levels and steep blind increases to make the tournament end on time. That gives the illusion of a lot of play, but the stacks are cut so short within a few levels that you don’t really end up with much play in the middle stages.

Assuming you have a reasonable schedule of blind increases (and that they are reasonably consistent as noted above), that’s probably the last area I’d touch. If your average increases are in the 40-60% range, I don’t think you want to go much larger. If you are using a WSOP-style structure of increases that average 20% or so, then yeah that might be your problem. That’s way too slow for a single table tournament.

 

[CSW]

Another option if you feel that things are too fast in the beginning and too slow in the middle/late stages is to add antes into the later blind levels.

Also, I agree with others that other factors will affect the speed of the game. For example, if you have a lot of coolers (or just some aggressive players) that creat a string of knockouts in the middle stages, you can end up with some bigger than expected stacks in the middle/late stages that can cause the game to slow down a bit around that time. Conversely, if players are playing very conservatively, you could end up with no knockouts for several levels, causing everyone to get short and then feel like the blinds are going up too fast. But really it’s just a function of how the hands played out in a given tournament.

 

[BGinGA]

8thI ran a 10 person STT (1 rebuy/player for first 6 levels) a few weeks ago and found that it was running kinda clunky. We started with 200bbs, 20 min levels, and small, incremental jumps in blinds each level.

At first, 20 min levels seemed too short since we didn’t even make it one revolution around the table before the blinds went up so the table agreed to increase each level to 30 mins for more play. Towards the middle/end of the tournament, play seemed to be dragging and a lot of players seemed to be getting restless.

Being that most players at my game are inexperienced/recreational players, what do you think would be the best intervention to help play move along more smoothly while also not turning it into a turbo?

Please define what "small incremental jumps" means to you. Posting the entire blind structure you used would be best. How long do you want the event to last?

200bb starting stacks and 20-minute blind levels are both solid choices for most home tournaments -- 200bb is plenty deep to provide decent poker, and 20-minute levels is sufficient to get in a full orbit of hands played before the blinds increase (two minutes per hand is the typical average). Sounds like your players may be playing really slow?

 

[AH77]

Please define what "small incremental jumps" means to you. Posting the entire blind structure you used would be best. How long do you want the event to last?

200bb starting stacks and 20-minute blind levels are both solid choices for most home tournaments -- 200bb is plenty deep to provide decent poker, and 20-minute levels is sufficient to get in a full orbit of hands played before the blinds increase (two minutes per hand is the typical average). Sounds like your players may be playing really slow?

This was the basic structure of the tournament. Blinds only doubled from level 1 to level 2. The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol. More than anything, I will probably look into getting a designated dealer next time. I ended up dealing the whole time towards the end of the tourney out of frustration.

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
Color up 5s
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800

 

[Santa123]

This was the basic structure of the tournament. Blinds only doubled from level 1 to level 2. The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol. More than anything, I will probably look into getting a designated dealer next time. I ended up dealing the whole time towards the end of the tourney out of frustration.

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
Color up 5s
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800

For me its all about playing poker with ppl who really enjoy poker. I need games with enough hands per hour. If not it tilts me that much I want to quit. The best blind structure will not help. Players need to focus at least that much that the game continues smoothly. This is just me.

 

[Mr Winberg]

The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol

Are you using two decks? If not, then that is a very good first step towards getting faster play.

Also, all players need to put some effort into helping the game along. They can still have a good, drunk, casual time and till move things along.

the table agreed to increase each level to 30 mins for more play

I think this is a mistake. You should set your level lengths according to when you want to tournament to end (search for the "20 BB rule"), then don't budge an inch! Even if someone spills a beer or whatever! If you pause the clock or prolong levels because someone (or everyone) does something that wastes time, then you are making it ok to waste time. If you instead hold your ground, then timewasters will (hopefully) start feeling the pressure from the group to stop ruining the tournament.

Also, they can't have it both ways. They can't first vote to lengthen the levels and then become restless because the game takes time. I mean, that was a pretty predictable outcome.

My 0.02

 

[upNdown]

If this crowd voted to have longer levels so that you could get at least an entire orbit per level, then they’ve told you that’s what’s important to them. So if it were me, I’d go with that.
Also, I question how realistic 30 hands per hour is for a self-dealt home game. I think that’s a more realistic goal for a game with a professional dealer and an auto shuffler. (Although using a second deck should speed things up immensely unless your players are useless shufflers and dealers.)

 

[AH77]

Are you using two decks? If not, then that is a very good first step towards getting faster play.

Also, all players need to put some effort into helping the game along. They can still have a good, drunk, casual time and till move things along.

Yeah we were using 2 decks but it was still a mess lol. A lot of them are simply inexperienced at dealing and we had a lot of misdeals.

If this crowd voted to have longer levels so that you could get at least an entire orbit per level, then they’ve told you that’s what’s important to them. So if it were me, I’d go with that.
Also, I question how realistic 30 hands per hour is for a self-dealt home game. I think that’s a more realistic goal for a game with a professional dealer and an auto shuffler. (Although using a second deck should speed things up immensely unless your players are useless shufflers and dealers.)

They were cool with it at the beginning but when it was 2am and we were still 3 handed with no end in sight, the remaining players were just over it by then.

 

[JustinInMN]

This was the basic structure of the tournament. Blinds only doubled from level 1 to level 2. The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol. More than anything, I will probably look into getting a designated dealer next time. I ended up dealing the whole time towards the end of the tourney out of frustration.

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
Color up 5s
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800

This is actually fairly close to my base 500 structure.

My first thought was start at 100bb instead of 200. My "short" structure for a weeknight 4 hour tournament works like that.

However, you would accomplish that simply by starting at 10-20 since you have that early double. So that saves one level.

I think 20 minutes should really be sufficient to get the button around a 10-handed table. But as an incremental change, maybe go to 22 or 25 minutes before doing a full 30?

The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol. More than anything, I will probably look into getting a designated dealer next time. I ended up dealing the whole time towards the end of the tourney out of frustration.

I suppose if this is truly the issue is it possible just to ease up on the alcohol if it's being consumed to the point it slows down the game?

Really if it's taking more than 20 minutes, then you are averaging over 2 minutes per hand. Is there a lot of tanking, or other possible causes?

 

[JustinInMN]

And of course this is always an option.

Switch to cash games ;-)

Seriously don't underestimate this. Good tournaments require players that are willing to pull their weight on pace of play because there is a clock. It sounds like you have many that aren't, or aren't able after some amount of consumption. Cash games take the time element away and players can break the game before they get to the "we're over it" point.

(though if you are at the "we're over it" point in a tournament, a deal can be made, provided someone is sober enough to do math.)

 

[AH77]

And of course this is always an option.



Seriously don't underestimate this. Good tournaments require players that are willing to pull their weight on pace of play because there is a clock. It sounds like you have many that aren't, or aren't able after some amount of consumption. Cash games take the time element away and players can break the game before they get to the "we're over it" point.

(though if you are at the "we're over it" point in a tournament, a deal can be made, provided someone is sober enough to do math.)

Yeah I usually stick to cash but we decided to switch it up this time around since some old friends were in town and thought it would be fun.

Really if it's taking more than 20 minutes, then you are averaging over 2 minutes per hand. Is there a lot of tanking, or other possible causes?

No, just inexperienced players lol. The usual questions every hand. “Who’s it on?” “Where’s the button?” “Am I a blind?” “Was there a raise?”

 

[BGinGA]

This was the basic structure of the tournament. Blinds only doubled from level 1 to level 2. The game being self dealt plus too many beers is what led to play being so slow lol. More than anything, I will probably look into getting a designated dealer next time. I ended up dealing the whole time towards the end of the tourney out of frustration.

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
Color up 5s
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800

That blind structure with T2000 stacks (200bb) and 20-minute blinds will typically last around 4.5 hours (plus breaks, so well over 5 hours), rarely going past the 500/1000 level. That's a tall order for most players to stomach on a normal week night when home / work / school responsibilities loom the next morning.

Recommended changes:
-- drop the first level, and start at 10/20 (100bb is plenty deep for inexperienced and impatient players)
-- lower the blind level times to 16 minutes (there is nothing magical about one orbit per blind level, nor is anyone entitled to such nonsense)

Those two simple changes will both alter the tournament dynamic (placing more emphasis on speed of play) and allow it to finish in a much more manageable 3+ hours of play.

You will also want to add a 600/1200 (and possibly 800/1600) level to the end of your structure.

Alternately, use the following structure with no clock, and simply raise the blinds after every orbit (raise the blinds after every 2 orbits when down to 6-handed, and after every 3 orbits when 3-handed and heads-up):

L1 5/10
L2 10/20
L3 20/40
L4 40 80
remove T5 chips
L5 75/150
L6 125/250
L7 200/400
L8 350/700
remove T25 chips
L9 500/1000
L10 800/1600

 

[JustinInMN]

Alternately, use the following structure with no clock, and simply raise the blinds after every orbit (raise the blinds after every 2 orbits when down to 6-handed, and after every 3 orbits when 3-handed and heads-up):

I do recall early Party Poker sit and goes that worked with a blind raise every orbit (or every x hands, not certain of which).

 

[BGinGA]

I do recall early Party Poker sit and goes that worked with a blind raise every orbit (or every x hands, not certain of which).

I run a couple of mixed-game tourney formats where both the game played and blinds change per orbit. Helpful to balance out play for when different games play at wildly different speeds.