Tourney Online Deep Stack Championship Freezeout Breakdown (1 Viewer)

BearMetal

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I'm going to be holding an online Championship tournament next week for everyone in my group that won a tournament outright in 2021. I'm putting up the prize money because, well, I don't know why. But since I am I don't want to mess up the blinds. I'm struggling with the blind levels since this tournament is going to have the below constraints:
  • Single table, 10 players
  • I want this to be a freezeout; no rebuys
  • I want to use high denomination chips to make it "feel" different", so I'm starting with a T100 base
  • Deep stack of 100,000 for each player
I've searched the forums and found some examples of T100 deep stack tournaments, but none of them were geared for online play. Since tournaments online typically go faster than those in person, they kinda play a bit more like a turbo. This tournament is going to happen on a Tuesday night, so I want the total runtime to be < 3 hours. Here's what I've come up with to start:

30 minute blinds, (Blinds and Antes)
Level 1: 100/200, 25
Level 2: 200/400, 50
Level 3: 500/1000, 100
Level 4: 1000/2000, 200
Level 5: 2000/4000, 500
Level 6: 5000/10000, 1000
Level 7: 10000/20000, 2000

I know that I want to keep each level at 30 minutes. We've tried 15 and 20 minute blinds and it goes too quickly. Appreciate any feedback on this one.
 

umbkcshah

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Just to clarify - is online just this tournament or the others as well? 15-20 minutes for online play seems like you'd get plenty of hands per level, no dealer errors, split pots times, all-in counts, etc.
 

BearMetal

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Just to clarify - is online just this tournament or the others as well? 15-20 minutes for online play seems like you'd get plenty of hands per level, no dealer errors, split pots times, all-in counts, etc.

Yes, all of these tournaments have been online. We have a Sunday game that started at 15 minute blinds, and it was too fast. It moved to 20 minutes, and it's fine. But it's got 2 rebuys and people just try to make moves as fast as possible b/c they know the levels are going up quickly.

For the championship tournament, I want it to not feel rushed.
 

umbkcshah

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For the championship tournament, I want it to not feel rushed.

Not wanting it to feel rushed, also forcing the blinds up so quickly as every level change cuts the average chip stack in by half or more - doesn't seem consistent. Each level might not feel rushed at 30 minutes, but the jumps are really painful. More play value in my opinion would be lower the starting stacks (or increasing the starting blinds), have smaller jumps and more levels. I know that's not your wish.

Also, first hour seems pretty meaningless unless someone makes a big error or cooler at such a BB/stack.

Just my thoughts.
 
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There’s really no right or wrong answer here. No matter what the blinds are, to get it finished in under 3 hours it will always feel rushed. 30 minute levels for a 3 hour game seem way too long, that’s only 6 levels. I’d do 20 minutes and change the increments. In the grand scheme it only adds 3 levels and in both scenarios that last level needs to be high enough to end the game. The extra levels might not make it seem so rushed bc the jumps aren’t so big.

Your way the positive is that the game will def last the full 3 hours bc 5000/10000 blinds ending at hour 3 w 1m chips in play are not high enough to force the all in or fold. The negative is the first hour the blinds seem really small.
Again no right or wrong answer. Good luck!

100/200
300/600
500/1000
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
7500/15000
10000/20000
20000/40000
 

BearMetal

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Not wanting it to feel rushed, also forcing the blinds up so quickly as every level change cuts the average chip stack in by half or more - doesn't seem consistent. Each level might not feel rushed at 30 minutes, but the jumps are really painful. More play value in my opinion would be lower the starting stacks (or increasing the starting blinds), have smaller jumps and more levels. I know that's not your wish.

Also, first hour seems pretty meaningless unless someone makes a big error or cooler at such a BB/stack.

Just my thoughts.
I can see your points. I think I'd want to keep the tournament at T100 starting point. So, if I were to reduce starting stacks, would I just cut them in half to 50,000? As far as the first hour being meaningless, isn't it always? I'm really trying to accomplish the following goals (which as you point out are a bit inconsistent:
  • Have enough time (at least an hour) where nobody really gets out. This is because it's still a fun, social event.
  • Not go more than 3 hours or so since it is a work night.
  • Not have the final blind levels also be pointless because there are so many chips on the table
Our Friday tournament lasts about 3.5 hours with 30 minute blinds. We start with 3,000 chips and start at 5/10. So this is 300BB via 250BB (if i dropped the starting stack to 50,000). I agree that if I kept it at 100,000, then it would be 500BB which does seem excessive.

Our Sunday tournament lasts about 3 hours with 20 minute blinds and the same starting blinds/stacks. There's an "extra" level in there to even it out compared to the Friday tournament.

There’s really no right or wrong answer here. No matter what the blinds are, to get it finished in under 3 hours it will always feel rushed. 30 minute levels for a 3 hour game seem way too long, that’s only 6 levels. I’d do 20 minutes and change the increments. In the grand scheme it only adds 3 levels and in both scenarios that last level needs to be high enough to end the game. The extra levels might not make it seem so rushed bc the jumps aren’t so big.

Your way the positive is that the game will def last the full 3 hours bc 5000/10000 blinds ending at hour 3 w 1m chips in play are not high enough to force the all in or fold. The negative is the first hour the blinds seem really small.
Again no right or wrong answer. Good luck!

100/200
300/600
500/1000
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
7500/15000
10000/20000
20000/40000
Yeah, see my point above about the "first hour" ... it's usually meaningless, but that's OK since it's social and we don't want anyone really out in that first hour. But with rebuys, people take more of a risk; in a freezeout, i don't think they will.

Adding the extra levels is certainly possible. Do you think I would get better value with 20 minute blinds and more fine grained levels like you suggested, or just dropping the overall starting stack to 50,000?
 

BGinGA

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I'd want to keep the tournament at T100 starting point... I'm really trying to accomplish the following goals (which as you point out are a bit inconsistent:
  • Have enough time (at least an hour) where nobody really gets out. This is because it's still a fun, social event.
  • Not go more than 3 hours or so since it is a work night.
  • Not have the final blind levels also be pointless because there are so many chips on the table
Our Friday tournament lasts about 3.5 hours with 30 minute blinds. We start with 3,000 chips and start at 5/10. So this is 300BB via 250BB (if i dropped the starting stack to 50,000).

Our Sunday tournament lasts about 3 hours with 20 minute blinds and the same starting blinds/stacks.


Do you think I would get better value with 20 minute blinds and more fine grained levels like you suggested, or just dropping the overall starting stack to 50,000?
Both, sorta.

Assuming your T5-base 5/10 300bb structure doesn't have levels that double, it can be a good indicator of how quickly other similar structures will finish.

With a similar % blind progression, you can expect a T100-base structure (50k @ 100/200, 250bb) to last about 3 hours using 25-minute levels.

If your software supports it, I'd use 20-minute levels for the first hour, then bump to 30-minute levels for the remainder of the event. That maximizes play during the time when stack-to-blind size is most meaningful (~ 20-100bb).
 

BGinGA

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100/200, 100 ante
200/400, 100 ante
300/600, 200 ante

500/1000, 300 ante
800/1600, 500 ante

1200/2400, 800 ante
2000/4000, 1000 ante
 

BearMetal

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Both, sorta.

Assuming your T5-base 5/10 300bb structure doesn't have levels that double, it can be a good indicator of how quickly other similar structures will finish.

With a similar % blind progression, you can expect a T100-base structure (50k @ 100/200, 250bb) to last about 3 hours using 25-minute levels.

If your software supports it, I'd use 20-minute levels for the first hour, then bump to 30-minute levels for the remainder of the event. That maximizes play during the time when stack-to-blind size is most meaningful (~ 20-100bb).
I thought about having longer levels after the first hour as well, but Poker Maven's doesn't allow this. Each level must be consistent. Ah, I was actually wrong; the Sunday tournament with 20-minute levels starts at 5/10. The Friday tournament starts at 10/20. So, historically, the online tournaments seem to last about:

3.5 hours: 300BB, 30 minute levels, 10/20 | 20/40 | 50/100 | 100/200 | 500/1000 | 1000/2000 | 5000 / 10000
3 hours: 600BB, 20 minute levels 5/10 | 10/20 | 25/50 | 50/100 | 100/200 | 500/1000 | 1000/2000 | 5000/10000

100/200, 100 ante
200/400, 100 ante
300/600, 200 ante

500/1000, 300 ante
800/1600, 500 ante

1200/2400, 800 ante
2000/4000, 1000 ante
Oooh, I like this idea! Have the ante match the BB to help build the pots a little in the beginning. Would you recommend this with the 50,000 250BB, or the 100,000 500BB?
 

BGinGA

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50k/250bb. I think 100k/500bb stacks are too big to finish in 3 hours without it feeling like a super-turbo. No point in having huge stacks if you're gonna race through 'em.
 
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Having every level double or 2.5x is wayyy too much of a jump. I’d much rather play 2 15 minute levels with smaller jumps than have a single 2.5x jump. 20 mins is absolutely the way to go to get a few more levels in.
 

BearMetal

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Having every level double or 2.5x is wayyy too much of a jump. I’d much rather play 2 15 minute levels with smaller jumps than have a single 2.5x jump. 20 mins is absolutely the way to go to get a few more levels in.
But then what's the point of having the different levels if they don't actually impact the stacks at all? Isn't the whole idea of having multiple levels to increase the size of the pot progressively?
 
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But then what's the point of having the different levels if they don't actually impact the stacks at all? Isn't the whole idea of having multiple levels to increase the size of the pot progressively?
Not sure what you’re asking. Shorter levels does increase the size of the pot progressively. A 2.5x jump increases the size drastically and you’re playing a completely different game in the span of one single hand. For example if at level 5 there are 5 players left and you have a below average, but still playable, stack of 160,000. You’re 40 bb deep and don’t need to panic. Then boom the blinds go from 2/4 to 5/10 and you’re down to 16 bb. Craziness.
 

BGinGA

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All tournament blind level increases result in progressively larger pots, while also progressively impacting current stack sizes. But how they go about doing it varies, pending choices of level duration and percentage increase.

For example, view these three different 8-player tournaments, all with the same starting stack size (8k), opening blinds (50/100), and expected finish time (3 hours):

Event A, 15-minute levels
-
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
-
200/400
250/500
300/600
400/800
-
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
-
Event B, 30-minute levels
-
50/100
100/200
-
200/400
400/800
-
800/1600
1500/3000
-
Event C, 60-minute levels
-
50/100
-
300/600
-
1500/3000
-

All three start and finish with the same blind level amounts, but how they progress between the two points is entirely different.

It's up to the individual players as to which event feels 'more rushed', but most will find longer times with larger jumps to feel more uncomfortable than shorter times with smaller jumps.
 

BearMetal

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Not sure what you’re asking. Shorter levels does increase the size of the pot progressively. A 2.5x jump increases the size drastically and you’re playing a completely different game in the span of one single hand. For example if at level 5 there are 5 players left and you have a below average, but still playable, stack of 160,000. You’re 40 bb deep and don’t need to panic. Then boom the blinds go from 2/4 to 5/10 and you’re down to 16 bb. Craziness.
Yeah, I guess I had always felt that having more levels in made the pot sizes smooth out more, so it wasn't as pronounced when the larger blind levels were hit. It's still progressive, but I had thought with more blind levels, you wouldn't get to the larger blinds in the same time frame, so the overall pot sizes would be smaller.

It's up to the individual players as to which event feels 'more rushed', but most will find longer times with larger jumps to feel more uncomfortable than shorter times with smaller jumps.
I had thought the opposite, but that's a very interesting point. So, shorter times with smaller jumps might feel more comfortable.
 

BearMetal

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"So, shorter times with smaller jumps might feel more comfortable."
I agree with this!
But what about having the large ante as well? I feel like the larger ante helps build the pot sizes, which is good for the first hour since the blinds are so low. But it also kinda negates the small blind a bit.
 
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But what about having the large ante as well? I feel like the larger ante helps build the pot sizes, which is good for the first hour since the blinds are so low. But it also kinda negates the small blind a bit.
Large anti meaning the BB antes for everyone or everyone at the table anti's and you just make them bigger?
 

BearMetal

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Look at the levels that @BGinGA posted above:

Code:
100/200, 100 ante
200/400, 100 ante
300/600, 200 ante

500/1000, 300 ante
800/1600, 500 ante

1200/2400, 800 ante
2000/4000, 1000 ante

In L1, the SB and ante are the same. In L3, it's 66% of the SB. So, starting out, the antes from all of the players will help build the initial pots, make pot-sized bets larger. But they also kinda of make everyone the SB since they are so large.

I think I'm definitely sold on the shorter levels with more jumps. So, I would say 20 minute levels is good. And I also think that 50,000 (250BB) starting in a T100 tournament is good too. So, right now, we're at something like this:

Starting Stack: 50,000 (250BB)
Level Duration: 20 minutes
Desired tournament time: ~ 3 hours

Hour 1:
100/200, 100 ante
200/400, 100 ante
300/600, 200 ante

Hour 2:
500/1000, 300 ante
800/1600, 500 ante
1000/2000, 700 ante

Hour 3:
1200/2400, 800 ante
2000/4000, 1000 ante
4000/8000, 2000 ante

Hour 3+
10000/20000, 5000 ante
20000/40000, 10000 ante
50000 /100000, 25000 ante
 

BGinGA

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Starting Stack: 50,000 (250BB)
Level Duration: 20 minutes
Desired tournament time: ~ 3 hours

Hour 1:
100/200, 100 ante
200/400, 100 ante (+100%)
300/600, 200 ante (+50%)

Hour 2:
500/1000, 300 ante (+67%)
800/1600, 500 ante (+60%)
1000/2000, 700 ante (+25%)

Hour 3:
1200/2400, 800 ante (+20%)
2000/4000, 1000 ante (+67%)
4000/8000, 2000 ante (+100%)

Hour 3+
10000/20000, 5000 ante (+150%)
20000/40000, 10000 ante (+100%)
50000 /100000, 25000 ante (+150%)
See my additions above that show the percentage increase in total blinds per blind level. Your proposed increases are wildly inconsistent, ranging from a mere 20% to 100% (and higher).

The following stucture is a more logical progression which meets your 3-hour goal, while keeping the blind increases (mostly) in a narrow 50%-67% range (and never > 100%):
Starting Stack: 50,000 (250BB)
Level Duration: 20 minutes
Desired tournament time: ~ 3 hours

L1 -- 100/200, 100 ante
L2 -- 200/400, 100 ante (+100%)
L3 -- 300/600, 200 ante (+50%)
break
L4 -- 500/1000, 300 ante (+67%)
L5 -- 800/1600, 500 ante (+60%)
L6 -- 1200/2400, 800 ante (+50%)
remove T100/T500 chips
L7 -- 2000/4000, 1000 ante (+67%)
L8 -- 3000/6000, 2000 ante (+50%)
L9 -- 5000/10000, 3000 ante (+67%)
additional levels if needed:
remove T1000 chips
L10 -- 10000/20000, 5000 ante (+100%)
L11 -- 20000/40000, 10000 ante (+100%)
L12 -- 40000 /80000, 20000 ante (+100%)
Your players will appreciate the consistency and improved playability.
 

BearMetal

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This is why I don't run tournaments normally; I'm no good at this stuff! OK, I think I've learned some valuable lessons here:
  • Shorter levels with a smoother transition of blinds is generally considered as a better model
  • In consistent blind increases are not a good thing, even when trying to build larger pots early on in a deep stack tournament
Thanks for all the feedback! I think I am definitely going to use the shorter levels with more consistent blinds and the smaller starting stack of 250BB.
 

BearMetal

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Tournament was a success! Last about 3:15, which was perfect. I was kinda of surprised at how much the ante's increased the pot-betting. So, I might back them off a little next time, but overall, it was a blast!
 
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Tournament was a success! Last about 3:15, which was perfect. I was kinda of surprised at how much the ante's increased the pot-betting. So, I might back them off a little next time, but overall, it was a blast
Glad to hear! What was the structure you ended up using?
 

BearMetal

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Glad to hear! What was the structure you ended up using?
I don't know why it doesn't let me copy this as text and I'm too lazy to type it all out:

1667407083196.png


This was with a SS of 50k and 20 minute blinds.
 

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