Shuffle Ahead/Behind Poll (1 Viewer)

[Alex Lundstrum]

The way I run my games is BB shuffles, then I cut and deal every hand (I always sit at center table). This is beneficial since many of my players are new-ish and or not great at dealing. 8-foot table makes it hard for dealing from either end, too. Thoughts?

 

[Poker Zombie]

The way I run my games is BB shuffles, then I cut and deal every hand (I always sit at center table). This is beneficial since many of my players are new-ish and or not great at dealing. 8-foot table makes it hard for dealing from either end, too. Thoughts?

Most of my players couldn't deal initially, but they learned. It's really not that hard, it just takes a little practice/experience. End to end dealing can be tough for some, and difficult for everyone on the table without speedcloth, but get it close and players pass the card the rest of the way.

But if you don't mind being the permanent dealer, that's fine too. Center seat allows for proper pot/muck control, and keeps community cards center-table.

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

But if you don't mind being the permanent dealer, that's fine too. Center seat allows for proper pot/muck control, and keeps community cards center-table.

Makes me a better player too, cuz if I'm dealing, I never get bored!

 

[DRacula]

At my friendly game, we have two decks in play.

The button always shuffles the deck not currently in use, the new button cuts the deck before it is dealt.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Taghkanic]

Three players handling the deck makes it much more difficult to cheat.

If I thought I was playing in a home game where (a) players cheated and (b) players were actually capable of stacking a live deck, I would find a different home game—rather than hope that an extra person handling the deck would make it more honest.

 

[Taghkanic]

Unless the guy behind you is slow, at some point between the deal and the flop the guy shuffling behind you should be done.

This could also be stated, “Unless the guy ahead of you is slow, at some point between the deal and the flop the guy shuffling ahead of you should be done.”

 

[andy699669]

Cutoffs shuffle the deck, then after shuffling hands the deck to the Dealer for him to cut.

 

[Taghkanic]

My basic sense is:

(1) I live in a small home in upstate New York c. 2019, not on a 19th Century riverboat full of sharps, thugs and grifters.

(2) It’s very hard and rare for anyone to cheat by stacking decks, or dealing from the bottom, etc.—especially in a friendly game populated by regs who know each other well, who have been personally vetted and invited, who don’t need the money in the room to survive, and who would take no pleasure from winning by cheating.

(3) One shuffler and one cutter is sufficient to satisfy any concerns and basic conventions.

(4) Needing just two people sitting next to each other to pay attention to the next deck is more efficient than three, passing a deck across the middle guy. With the amount of banter (and at least one 420er) in the game, three would cause delays.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I hate having two decks. Give me one deck and I'll deal all night. But pass the deal drives me nuts.

 

[v1pe]

Since the inception of this thread and my initial reply I'm convinced that there is no better method than having one dedicated dealer (usually me, if I'm hosting). After each hand I push the cards to the button who shuffles while I deal the hand. When the button gets around to me, I choose a random person (usually someone who I think is a "better" or faster shuffler) to shuffle.

Yeah, it sucks a little bit for the dealer (again, me usually) but I don't think there's a quicker/better way aside from dedicated dealers and automated shuffling.

 

[Venturalvn]

A

Since the inception of this thread and my initial reply I'm convinced that there is no better method than having one dedicated dealer (usually me, if I'm hosting). After each hand I push the cards to the button who shuffles while I deal the hand. When the button gets around to me, I choose a random person (usually someone who I think is a "better" or faster shuffler) to shuffle.

Yeah, it sucks a little bit for the dealer (again, me usually) but I don't think there's a quicker/better way aside from dedicated dealers and automated shuffling.

Assuming you still get enjoyment from the game being a FT dealer, more power to you. But we play 8-9 hours straight and dealing while playing for that long seems like more than a "bit" sucky. What if you have to go the bathroom? Does that halt the game? What if you wanna take a swig of beer? Does that sloe the game? What if you want to concentrate on a hand you're in or participate in a conversation without having to keep track of the pot?

I can deal better and faster than any one person at our game, but with two decks and a shuffle behind, by the time the cards are scooped we have another hand in the air before the prior winner even has time to stack their chips. I don't know understand how much time y'all are trying to save over that kind of system.

 

[Old State]

I hate having two decks. Give me one deck and I'll deal all night. But pass the deal drives me nuts.

Using two decks is single handedly the most annoying thing in a poker game for me. Nothing drive me nuts more than someone dealing and chips being bet during a hand...while someone else, who is often in the hand, is sloppily shuffling cards. Worse is people pushing a mess of cards across the table while someone is trying to pull in a pot while another guy is cutting the new deck.


I am 100% a proponent of using one deck and learning to freaking shuffle properly. Most people can’t so the benefit of two decks is often negligible...especially when factoring in the dozens of other things that routinely interrupt game play at a typical game.

That said, having been subjected to the chaos of two decks, I would imagine shuffling behind would make the most sense.

 

[Taghkanic]

I’m curious to understand better what is causing “chaos” related to two decks. I’ve just not experienced that at any halfway serious home game. (I do find shuffling to the left of the dealer minimizes potential confusion and mess, while having two decks speeds up the game immensely with either method.)

 

[Old State]

I’m curious to understand better what is causing “chaos” related to two decks. I’ve just not experienced that at any halfway serious home game. (I do find shuffling to the left of the dealer minimizes potential confusion and mess, while having two decks speeds up the game immensely with either method.)

It’s constantly “who do these go too?” “Are these shuffled...ok I’ll shuffle again” “did you cut these?” “It’s up to you...oh sorry I was shuffling....uhhhhh...what was the bet?.....ok I call”.....”

That all on top of pushing around a pile of cards in the middle of a hand with a pot and board on still in the table.

These types of games also like to use a button despite the fact the players deal....so add it the perpetual “is the button right?”.

Fir a bonus add in people making change from the pot and you have a total shit show.

I played for years with a crew before I ever saw two decks and never experienced any advantage.... but lots of frustration. We collectively banned it in that group. When a new play would ask about two decks it would take about 1/10 of a second before someone would say “NO”. Everyone could shuffle effectively and efficiently. Tons of YouTube videos out there now days. Grab a deck and a mouse pad and practice in front of the TV. Most people will master it in a few hours at most.

 

[v1pe]

A
Assuming you still get enjoyment from the game being a FT dealer, more power to you. But we play 8-9 hours straight and dealing while playing for that long seems like more than a "bit" sucky. What if you have to go the bathroom? Does that halt the game? What if you wanna take a swig of beer? Does that sloe the game? What if you want to concentrate on a hand you're in or participate in a conversation without having to keep track of the pot?

I can deal better and faster than any one person at our game, but with two decks and a shuffle behind, by the time the cards are scooped we have another hand in the air before the prior winner even has time to stack their chips. I don't know understand how much time y'all are trying to save over that kind of system.

Yeah, I do...albeit less enjoyment than I have when not dealing (if the dealer is good and competent).

We also play similar sessions, and have gone as long as 10-12 hours. If I need to use the restroom or go help my wife with the kids, I usually turn the dealing over to another experienced player. I'll drink beer or take bites during a tank or while the action is not on me, particularly when I'm not in a hand. Granted, turning over the dealer or me getting up does slow the game and tick, but IMO we still get more hands in than if we were player dealt.

My gripes with player dealing are that many players have no idea what they are doing, can't pitch cards (especially if seated on the edges of the table), and don't drive the action. Pre-dealing the F/T/R is a common occurrence which drives me nuts. Misdeals occur more often. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[DoubleEagle]

It’s constantly “who do these go too?” “Are these shuffled...ok I’ll shuffle again” “did you cut these?” “It’s up to you...oh sorry I was shuffling....uhhhhh...what was the bet?.....ok I call”.....”

Simply not happening in our game. We’ve been doing it for years and everyone is well trained. We use shuffle ahead. Works for us and definantely speeds up play.

 

[v1pe]

Using two decks is single handedly the most annoying thing in a poker game for me. Nothing drive me nuts more than someone dealing and chips being bet during a hand...while someone else, who is often in the hand, is sloppily shuffling cards. Worse is people pushing a mess of cards across the table while someone is trying to pull in a pot while another guy is cutting the new deck.


I am 100% a proponent of using one deck and learning to freaking shuffle properly. Most people can’t so the benefit of two decks is often negligible...especially when factoring in the dozens of other things that routinely interrupt game play at a typical game.

That said, having been subjected to the chaos of two decks, I would imagine shuffling behind would make the most sense.

It’s constantly “who do these go too?” “Are these shuffled...ok I’ll shuffle again” “did you cut these?” “It’s up to you...oh sorry I was shuffling....uhhhhh...what was the bet?.....ok I call”.....”

That all on top of pushing around a pile of cards in the middle of a hand with a pot and board on still in the table.

These types of games also like to use a button despite the fact the players deal....so add it the perpetual “is the button right?”.

Fir a bonus add in people making change from the pot and you have a total shit show.

I played for years with a crew before I ever saw two decks and never experienced any advantage.... but lots of frustration. We collectively banned it in that group. When a new play would ask about two decks it would take about 1/10 of a second before someone would say “NO”. Everyone could shuffle effectively and efficiently. Tons of YouTube videos out there now days. Grab a deck and a mouse pad and practice in front of the TV. Most people will master it in a few hours at most.

I guess I don't disagree with you, if all of my players knew how to shuffle and we're proficient and serious poker players, I would have few issues with a single deck game.

That said, I could make the same argument that competent people should be able to learn the flow of a double deck game, or a dedicated dealer game, or however it's run.

I think it largely comes down to your players. The bulk of my players are mid 30s dad's with 2-4 young kids. Most of these guys have never played poker for more than $20 and have never stepped into a real poker room or even a casino. I can't/don't expect these guys to learn to shuffle in their off time... At least not if I still want to play with them. These kinds of expectations would also make my game much less new player friendly IMO.

All that said, even shuffling properly takes 10-15 seconds maybe? That can be saved if you use a second deck.

In regards to cutting the deck, I simply use a single cut card and I cut the deck on autopilot onto the single cut card as soon as it's passed my way for the next deal.

 

[Old State]

I guess I don't disagree with you, if all of my players knew how to shuffle and we're proficient and serious poker players, I would have few issues with a single deck game.

That said, I could make the same argument that competent people should be able to learn the flow of a double deck game, or a dedicated dealer game, or however it's run.

I think it largely comes down to your players. The bulk of my players are mid 30s dad's with 2-4 young kids. Most of these guys have never played poker for more than $20 and have never stepped into a real poker room or even a casino. I can't/don't expect these guys to learn to shuffle in their off time... At least not if I still want to play with them. These kinds of expectations would also make my game much less new player friendly IMO.

All that said, even shuffling properly takes 10-15 seconds maybe? That can be saved if you use a second deck.

In regards to cutting the deck, I simply use a single cut card and I cut the deck on autopilot onto the single cut card as soon as it's passed my way for the next deal.

What I have witnessed is, in real application, that potential 10-15 seconds doesn’t get saved. There are numerous distractions that holdup any poker game on any night. And that includes casino games. As my old boss would say the “juice simply isn’t worth the squeeze”.

As for the experience of the players, what you describe is the typical American home game. And I have a few of those types in my newer small stakes game. I host and we use one deck. No one has complained.

I understand that my experience may be different in that I was taught poker by some friends who where already very seasoned and were playing 7 card stud and blackjack underage in AC several for years before I got serious. My first experience with two decks was probably around 2004 or 2005 with a group of guys who fit the demographic you describe. I really liked those guys but the games were very frustrating in comparison. My original crew shuffled and dealt one deck 3x faster then they could work two so I never saw the advantage. I certainly don’t mean to sound obnoxious or insult anyone but if I’m honest it always seemed to be what people just learning poker from TV did.

All that said, I strongly believe most people can’t shuffle properly because they simply don’t know there is another way. It’s so easy I’m convinced you could teach a monkey to do it.

 

[v1pe]

What I have witnessed is, in real application, that potential 10-15 seconds doesn’t get saved. There are numerous distractions that holdup any poker game on any night. And that includes casino games. As my old boss would say the “juice simply isn’t worth the squeeze”.

As for the experience of the players, what you describe is the typical American home game. And I have a few of those types in my newer small stakes game. I host and we use one deck. No one has complained.

I understand that my experience may be different in that I was taught poker by some friends who where already very seasoned and were playing 7 card stud and blackjack underage in AC several for years before I got serious. My first experience with two decks was probably around 2004 or 2005 with a group of guys who fit the demographic you describe. I really liked those guys but the games were very frustrating in comparison. My original crew shuffled and dealt one deck 3x faster then they could work two so I never saw the advantage. I certainly don’t mean to sound obnoxious or insult anyone but if I’m honest it always seemed to be what people just learning poker from TV did.

All that said, I strongly believe most people can’t shuffle properly because they simply don’t know there is another way. It’s so easy I’m convinced you could teach a monkey to do it.

No offense taken. We all have different experiences/opinions

 

[DRacula]

What I have witnessed is, in real application, that potential 10-15 seconds doesn’t get saved. There are numerous distractions that holdup any poker game on any night. And that includes casino games. As my old boss would say the “juice simply isn’t worth the squeeze”.
did.

Agreed. Slow play will always be a part of live poker, I never mind if there a good social element or the game is juicy. Usually the better the poker player, the faster they play.

All that said, I strongly believe most people can’t shuffle properly because they simply don’t know there is another way. It’s so easy I’m convinced you could teach a monkey to do it.

Strongly disagree. I dealt cards professionally for a year and this is my observation:

1. For a proper shuffle, you will need periodic washes, several riffles, strip the deck, more riffles and a cut. I can count on one hand the amount of players and home game dealers I’ve met that can do this correctly.

2. The cards of the deck both in play and not in play cannot be exposed while shuffling. As a courtesy to other players and in the interest of the integrity of the game it is the responsibility of every player to notify the person shuffling when this rule is broken. This rarely happens. Seriously.

I would say that you need a “sufficient” shuffle. In other words, enough randomness in the distribution of the cards and enough lack of exposure relative to the stakes and seriousness of the game.

Small stakes with friends? Who cares.
Thousands on the table with strangers? I don’t want anyone touching the cards except a non playing professional dealer

 

[Old State]

Agreed. Slow play will always be a part of live poker, I never mind if there a good social element or the game is juicy. Usually the better the poker player, the faster they play.



Strongly disagree. I dealt cards professionally for a year and this is my observation:

1. For a proper shuffle, you will need periodic washes, several riffles, strip the deck, more riffles and a cut. I can count on one hand the amount of players and home game dealers I’ve met that can do this correctly.

2. The cards of the deck both in play and not in play cannot be exposed while shuffling. As a courtesy to other players and in the interest of the integrity of the game it is the responsibility of every player to notify the person shuffling when this rule is broken. This rarely happens. Seriously.

I would say that you need a “sufficient” shuffle. In other words, enough randomness in the distribution of the cards and enough lack of exposure relative to the stakes and seriousness of the game.

Small stakes with friends? Who cares.
Thousands on the table with strangers? I don’t want anyone touching the cards except a non playing professional dealer

Hmmm. Questions
1) You think this is hard to learn?

2) I think there is a statistician on YouTube that shows an extra strip and riffle is just as good as a wash. Either way, even without a wash, a quick riffle strip riffle riffle is 1000x better than what the average player does and takes 3x as long to do at that.

 

[Mesnik44]

Shuffle behind in my league. Also, I no longer do all the dealing, why should I? Others get to focus on their cards, while I have to focus on my cards and the deal and the stub, and the betting. I don't get paid nor tipped for dealing so I stopped doing it all.

 

[DRacula]

Hmmm. Questions
1) You think this is hard to learn?

2) I think there is a statistician on YouTube that shows an extra strip and riffle is just as good as a wash. Either way, even without a wash, a quick riffle strip riffle riffle is 1000x better than what the average player does and takes 3x as long to do at that.

It wasn’t for me, but for someone that lacks the dexterity or has arthritis sure.

Riffle shuffling takes some practice to get done quickly and without having cards shootout or get stuck.

 

[Old State]

It wasn’t for me, but for someone that lacks the dexterity or has arthritis sure.

Riffle shuffling takes some practice to get done quickly and without having cards shootout or get stuck.

Ok ....but outside anyone with arthritis or some type of physical handicap I still contend this can be learned in a few hours by the overwhelming majority of the population.

 

[celticnoel]

I have never understood the reason to have two decks of cards in a game! Maybe I'm missing something but in our games we always have a dedicated dealer (usually me) what's the point? I can oy think for quickness but surely there has to be someone at the game who's a relatively quick shuffler/dealer?

 

[Cdsmitck]

Behind, because ahead is dealt the top card to make the dubious act easier and far less conspicuous.

 

[Poker Zombie]

If I thought I was playing in a home game where (a) players cheated and (b) players were actually capable of stacking a live deck, I would find a different home game—rather than hope that an extra person handling the deck would make it more honest.

"Trust everyone, but always cut the deck."

-Winston Churchill

 

[Taghkanic]

In a game where there is a good degree of trust among the players, I think the cut mainly is useful (a) as a final randomizing factor, esp. if the shuffle was less than optimal, and (b) to reduce small, unintentional angles where a player might not be trying to get an edge, but another player’s sloppiness starts to introduce one.

... For example, if someone is shuffling poorly and lifts the deck in a way that exposes a bottom card to another player’s view.

Ideally the player should say, “Hey, keep the deck down, I saw a 9 of hearts on the bottom when you shuffled.” But even the most scrupulous players may not feel like speaking up all the time. And sure, if they also notice how the deck was cut, they might know, hmm, that 9h might get onto the board here...

I just don’t think cheating is a big concern in most friendly home games. Even in live self-dealt games with relative strangers, I don’t have many worries.

Angles seem way more common than encountering a true card “mechanic” ... Petty stuff like hiding high-denom chips behind their reds/whites.

The only real instance of possible cheating I encountered was in a casual friend’s home game. He met two guys, one of whom had a criminal record, at a bar game and they got themselves invited. (This already sounds I’ll-advised.) People noticed that one of them was constantly chattering during hands when they were at the same table, and that their performance was much worse when not seated together. This led to speculation about signaling—that the chatterer was conveying hand strength to his buddy.

I also knew of an area underground club where the shady owners and some dealers were accused of cold-decking people. I never played there but the accusations were rampant. Then again, people who get bad beats often look to explanations besides variance to explain their ill fortune...

Still, petty angling seems way more likely and feasible than successful deck-stacking.

 

[MattyMatt]

I just tried shuffling behind in a game I hosted last weekend and the result was mixed;

+ I thought the table was a bit cleaner faster after a hand ended. I agree that the dealer seems to have more apparent control over the deck / muck pile and can faster collect the cards, and then there's no need to "cross" the path of the new dealer to hand over a poorly collected deck to the next shuffler/dealer. Instead there seems to be less of a lag between being able to cleanly start the next deal and those cards being 'off the table'. I like it.

- Mixed reaction from players. One said it was better in theory, one agreed it was better in practice, a couple found it confusing, and one hated it. The person who hated it really didn't have much of a good reason for it though. His argument was that by having someone else shuffle for you you're not sure that the deck actually has been shuffled before you deal. But that's a bit of a dumb argument, because with his reasoning you only know the deck has been shuffled when you shuffle yourself, and you always shuffle once per orbit, no more, no less, so nothing really changed. That guy whines about at least a couple of things every game though, so I don't really care all that much if he's unhappy about it.

Not sure what to do for the next game. I'm tempted to try shuffling behind again because my instincts tell me it'll be better in the long run... just that people saying they're confused or the one person complaining is a bit annoying. I honestly have a really hard time understanding how a person can sit down and risk over $100 in No Limit Hold'Em and comprehend the mechanics of the game and at least some theory yet be confused by "After you've dealt you collect the cards and shuffle them"... I mean... really?...

mankind... lol... I prefer k9s... (dogs... not king/nine suited)

 

[Daddy N]

Always behind. Clean up your mess, pass to the player on the left who cuts, then finally pass once more to another player who deals. Three players handling the deck makes it much more difficult to cheat. The only time I hate this system is when it is 4 handed and there is a nit UTG who has to act/shuffler at the same time.

This is what we do