Tourney Several problems at home game. (4 Viewers)

[Frogzilla]

When a live player shows a player out of the hand his/her cards, both players are violating one or more rules. It is pretty clear and there is really no question about it. The real question is, how tightly do you want to enforce the rules? First, let's get the formality of proving that the action is against the rules and both the person showing his/her live hand and the person viewing it are violating rules.

Robert's Rules of Poker is incredibly explicit when it says, "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded (sic) pot before the betting is complete." I don't know how you can get more straightforward than that. While the hand is going on, if a player reveals the contents of his/her live hand before betting is complete, he/she is violating the rule.​

A second rule states: "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot." Obviously, showing your cards to a player or looking at another player's cards while the cards are live, with or without permission, is "taking action" and could unfairly influence play. Notice, it doesn't say that the action has to unfairly influence the course of play, but that it COULD influence it. Obviously, somebody not in the hand that knows another person's cards while play is still going on could unfairly affect play in many ways, both intentionally and unintentionally. Therefore, showing your cards to another player or looking at another player's cards during play is a clear violation of the rules by both players.​

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Last, but not least, there is this: "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player." While this particular rule refers to folded hands, it provides insight into the intention of the rule set, which is that letting somebody know the contents of your hand, even to somebody not in the pot, is bad because it opens up the possibility of information being transmitted to an active player and unfairly influencing the course of play.​

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Now that we have that cleared up, let's get to the real question...how closely do you want to enforce the rules? Of course, a tournament director can choose to not enforce the rule, get rid of the rule, etc. However, for me, it gets back to the old standby that any good tournament director lives, breathes, and dies by: "If you want to keep a friendly game of poker friendly, have a good rule set and enforce the rules fairly and consistently." To me, these are two very fundamental rules that should be a part of any good rule set. There is a reason Robert Ciaffone chose to put them right at the front in Section 1.

The rule goes out of the way to say it only applies to multi-way (3+ live hands) pots, right?

 

[JRReynolds6181]

Roberts Rules of Poker is the gold standard for poker home games.

 

[BGinGA]

The rule goes out of the way to say it only applies to multi-way (3+ live hands) pots, right?

That's because revealing part of your hand to your opponent when heads-up is allowed in cash games. Only reason for specifying multi-way.

 

[DeeVee8]

Perhaps you could suggest a spelling contest to them instead.

 

[DeeVee8]

at my home tournament,10 handed, my friends think it’s normal, after they have folded, to look a different persons cards when they are still in play. So for example, player 1 folds, player 2 will raise and player 1 asks player 2 what he has and is shown, player 1 will look at other people’s cards as well and if someone doesn’t show him, he will ask why and say it doesn’t matter. Also, when a band is over they expect everyone to show their hand no matter what. I see this as a major problem, and it’s not the poker I wanna play, how can I tell them this isn’t right?

If you're not already, become the dedicated dealer. Scoop those mf hands up before they have a chance to show them.

Also, I'm sure as hell not going to trust that the folded players face isn't going to give my opponent information when he looks at my cards. Get yourself a steel ruler and go Catholic nun on any hand that comes near your cards.

 

[tabletalker7]

If you're not already, become the dedicated dealer. Scoop those mf hands up before they have a chance to show them.

Also, I'm sure as hell not going to trust that the folded players face isn't going to give my opponent information when he looks at my cards. Get yourself a steel ruler and go Catholic nun on any hand that comes near your cards.

We had one guy at my games that always refused to cut the cards. So one night I had him sit with me on one side and my buddy John on the other. Whenever he refused to cut the deck I had to deal, John smacked him in the back of the head. When he turned to John to try to raise hell for smacking him, I quickly chugged his beer. Didn't take long before he was happy to cut.

 

[Coyote]

Also, I'm sure as hell not going to trust that the folded players face isn't going to give my opponent information when he looks at my cards.

Exactly this.
And since this is done for "fun", the person who is shown the cards is socially supposed to react somehow, out of being nice to the person who shows. His reaction can give away a lot of information.
Only honest way to share your feelings about your cards is to tell everybody what you had, after the hand is over.

 

[StevieG]

I agree that it opens up the possibility of bad things happening, and best practices say not to do it. But no, you can show somebody else your cards and still make all the decisions about the hand by yourself - which is what happens 99% of the times this is done. And I'm kind of just arguing here, but I've seen this happen COUNTLESS times, and I've never seen it affect the hand.

Just about every rule and standard practice in poker is about one thing - protecting the players and running a clean game. Not about fighting fun. Not about stopping people from having a good time. About running a square game.

Yes, it is absolutely possible that a player might show his cards to someone else, and still make all the decisions with no outside input.

But once the show-of-cards happens, every gesture, reaction, phrase from that other player could be a signal of some kind.

So now you've gone from having to police something that is overt and easy to spot (player shows someone else their cards) to policing something that is covert and tough to spot (signaling).

Nip this in the bud.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I used to not really care if people revealed live hands to bystanders in my tournaments, and I totally got why someone might allow this. Then this happened to me in back-to-back tourneys:

Tourney 1:
6 remain, 5 get paid. A noob (who hasn't cashed ever) raises. I moved all in, playing on his willingness to cash. It folds back to him. He is veeery hesitant. It looks after a while like he's about to fold. His girlfriend who got eliminated earlier takes interest, and he shows her. She (without making a sound) freaks out, starts motioning her arms like "WTF???" and rolling her eyes etc. It's silent but aggressive and the message is clear: "Call you f*cking p#ssy!!". He, who realizes the respect of his woman is more important than cashing, reluctantly calls with AQ and severely cripples me.

My bluff was perfect, I knew he wouldn't want to risk anything, but I hadn't taken his gf into account...

Tourney 2:
Final table, villain raises, I move all in with TT. Villain tanks and several times moves his cards forward and back again (he's not looking at me, so it's sincere and not about inducing tells). He sighs, shows the neighbor his cards and folds.... almost! He brings them back again (he never let them go) because the neighbor exclaimed "YOU'RE FOLDING THAT???". He thinks for 10 more seconds and calls with AJ and eliminates me. The neighbor knew he f#cked up and apologizes to me several times.
Given the stack sizes, his fold would have been really bad and I would have taken the raise and blinds every day of the week instead of a flip.

Needless to say, I'm firmly in the "don't show your cards" camp now, and I remind my players of this every tournament.

Please note how (apart from showing) the villains did nothing wrong in either situation. It was the bystanders who f:d up. My point is:

tl;dr: If you show, you have no control over how that info is used. Your "best intentions" mean nothing when someone else (who might not be playing and therefore is unpunishable) f:s up!

 

[BGinGA]

Worth repeating:

Just about every rule and standard practice in poker is about one thing - protecting the players and running a clean game. Not about fighting fun. Not about stopping people from having a good time. About running a square game.

And it goes hand-in-hand with this:

If you want to keep a friendly game of poker friendly, have a good rule set and enforce the rules fairly and consistently.

 

[Coyote]

"Good accounts make good friends" a Greek saying goes (sadly not observed by most Greeks though )

 

[Gobbs]

The rule goes out of the way to say it only applies to multi-way (3+ live hands) pots, right?

It does not say "multi-way", it says multihanded. Multi-way would be three or more hands because there is only one way between two hands. Multihanded means two or more hands. Its not a single hand, there are multiple hands...more than one. 2>1

So, no, it does not go out of it's way to say 3 or more hands. It goes out of its way to say any time there are live hands. Multiple hands. More than one remaining hand.

 

[CHP TD]

What Gobbs said.

Get rules - enforce em and most importantly if you are the TD they apply to you too. Games without rules get ugly quick.

Lead by example.

 

[grebe]

"Rules don't CONfine, they DEfine".

I wish I could remember what book this came from. The rest of the book was unremarkable, but I always loved this line.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Here is the most important rule. Its hour house so its YOUR rules. Anybody that doesn't like them is free to not play at YOUR house. I am a stickler for Roberts rules at my house. Its probably the engineer in me but those rules were developed for a reason.

Other houses i play at aren't as tight on the rules. That's ok (although its not my preference) since its THEIR house. Now they also play some odd games on occasion. I choose not to play on those nights. Again their game my choice.

The only real problems I have ever seen arise are when either the rules aren't spelled out or even worse they are spelled out and the host doesn't enforce them. Now THAT pisses me off!

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Tourney 1:
6 remain, 5 get paid. A noob (who hasn't cashed ever) raises. I moved all in, playing on his willingness to cash. It folds back to him. He is veeery hesitant. It looks after a while like he's about to fold. His girlfriend who got eliminated earlier takes interest, and he shows her. She (without making a sound) freaks out, starts motioning her arms like "WTF???" and rolling her eyes etc. It's silent but aggressive and the message is clear: "Call you f*cking p#ssy!!". He, who realizes the respect of his woman is more important than cashing, reluctantly calls with AQ and severely cripples me.

My bluff was perfect, I knew he wouldn't want to risk anything, but I hadn't taken his gf into account

I’m pretty easy going but pretty sure I’d gone ballistic on that one. Did the host say anything when it happened?

The second one was bad but the guy knew it immediately. Seems like no remorse on first villain couple.

 

[Coyote]

The true problem is when friends don't realise their friendship is at stake, if playing poker with real money and no rules.

Unless you have a critical mass of friends (among friends) realising the danger, you can't enforce rules.

You must either sacrifice friendships, or keep them off the poker table and find instead good-will strangers to play poker with, willing to follow rules. The latter is a long and hard process.

 

[JMC9389]

I'm all for discussing a hand after it is completed in the name of learning if all parties are agreeable to it. I'm far from a pro but would consider that I'm one of the more experienced players in a game of recreational players and even a couple of novices.

If someone doesn't want to reveal their cards at showdown after calling, that's fine. If they want to show their hand after winning to show a bluff or made hand at any time, knock yourself out. But keep your cards to yourself until the hand is completed and the pot is awarded. Doing otherwise is not only against the rules but does not respect your fellow player.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I’m pretty easy going but pretty sure I’d gone ballistic on that one. Did the host say anything when it happened?

Well, the host had this viewpoint:

I used to not really care if people revealed live hands to bystanders in my tournaments

...but has after these two experiences changed to:

Needless to say, I'm firmly in the "don't show your cards" camp now, and I remind my players of this every tournament.

To clarify, it was not like I ran a lawless game where everyone was showing all the time. It happened every now and then and I didn't make a big deal about it.

In this instance, I couldn't really tell her to stop because that would have made it clear that I didn't want a call. And afterwards, it would have made me look like a sore loser if I had complained.

The second one was bad but the guy knew it immediately. Seems like no remorse on first villain couple.

Both he and his gf were beginners and didn't do it maliciously, they just didn't know any better. The second one, he is definitely no beginner, but you could see the second after he said it that he realized he had f:d up. In his mind he was going "ctlr-z! ctrl-z! Where's the BLOODY CTRL-Z!?!?"

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Well, the host had this viewpoint:

...but has after these two experiences changed to:


To clarify, it was not like I ran a lawless game where everyone was showing all the time. It happened every now and then and I didn't make a big deal about it.

In this instance, I couldn't really tell her to stop because that would have made it clear that I didn't want a call. And afterwards, it would have made me look like a sore loser if I had complained.


Both he and his gf were beginners and didn't do it maliciously, they just didn't know any better. The second one, he is definitely no beginner, but you could see the second after he said it that he realized he had f:d up. In his mind he was going "ctlr-z! ctrl-z! Where's the BLOODY CTRL-Z!?!?"

Ah, didn’t realize you were the host in that tourney. That does change the dynamic and puts you in a tough spot.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Well, the host had this viewpoint:

...but has after these two experiences changed to:


To clarify, it was not like I ran a lawless game where everyone was showing all the time. It happened every now and then and I didn't make a big deal about it.

In this instance, I couldn't really tell her to stop because that would have made it clear that I didn't want a call. And afterwards, it would have made me look like a sore loser if I had complained.


Both he and his gf were beginners and didn't do it maliciously, they just didn't know any better. The second one, he is definitely no beginner, but you could see the second after he said it that he realized he had f:d up. In his mind he was going "ctlr-z! ctrl-z! Where's the BLOODY CTRL-Z!?!?"

You needed me at that table. I can have a big mouth when needed. I’m sure I would have said something the second he called.

 

[Mr Winberg]

You needed me at that table. I can have a big mouth when needed. I’m sure I would have said something the second he called.

You're always invited! I live slightly east of Lexington.

 

[davethesave]

I have played with a player who constantly shows his live hands to the guy sitting next to him while he's tanking forever thinking about what to do. I have considered complaining or at the very least saying after the hand he needs to show the whole table, but I haven't up to this point. He doesn't do it all the time but enough that it bugs me. At the very least, the guy who gets to see his hole cards is getting an unfair advantage compared to the rest of the table.

I hate this... same thing happens at my games. I call the guy out a lot because only half the table sees while he knows the other half of the table would be able to make mental notes about the hand for later play.... drives me insane. plenty of warnings and threats and I get the "we're all here just to have fun, so relax"... and then I say "know what would be fun? just ship all your chips to me and you can be my own personal bartender for the night".

 

[davethesave]

Sidenote…

is there a Roberts rules APP or something that can be pulled out as quick reference... obviously the book would be ideal, but where is the best electronic reference guide for Roberts rules?

 

[tabletalker7]

Sidenote…

is there a Roberts rules APP or something that can be pulled out as quick reference... obviously the book would be ideal, but where is the best electronic reference guide for Roberts rules?

I found a copy of version 11 online in PDF - had to run it through a converter to TXT so I could upload it here. Download it to your phone. Then you can pull it up at will

 

[davethesave]

I found a copy of version 11 online in PDF - had to run it through a converter to TXT so I could upload it here. Download it to your phone. Then you can pull it up at will

AMAZING!!! Thanks!!!