Tourney Several problems at home game. (1 Viewer)

Shicky

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at my home tournament,10 handed, my friends think it’s normal, after they have folded, to look a different persons cards when they are still in play. So for example, player 1 folds, player 2 will raise and player 1 asks player 2 what he has and is shown, player 1 will look at other people’s cards as well and if someone doesn’t show him, he will ask why and say it doesn’t matter. Also, when a band is over they expect everyone to show their hand no matter what. I see this as a major problem, and it’s not the poker I wanna play, how can I tell them this isn’t right?
 

trigs

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One person to a hand, hand is still in play rules should be followed. Explain how it can influence the outcome of the current hand and it's not cool.

After the hand is over, let everyone tell everyone else what hand they had while you say nothing. #easygame
 

Shicky

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Will do, and what should I do if people deliberately act out of turn. For example the button folds when action was on the utg.

Oh, and if the dealer looks at the next cards as well, even if he isn’t in play. Ik my buddies do a lot of stupid things haha.
 

CottonClubFrance

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At my homegame we let people do that because we are grown-ups and it happens 2 or 3 times a night maximum (cashgame though). If it was going out of control I would go for FDLmold rule. You show to another player with action going one, it is burned. You look at someone's cards during hand --> Penalty for Tournament and in Cashgame 2 BB ante and out for next hand or something like that
 

Jambine

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Will do, and what should I do if people deliberately act out of turn. For example the button folds when action was on the utg.

Oh, and if the dealer looks at the next cards as well, even if he isn’t in play. Ik my buddies do a lot of stupid things haha.
No need to reinvent the wheel. All of this is covered in Roberts Rules.
 

Frogzilla

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Depending on how many folks like to sweat each other’s hands, you might have an uphill battle. It does make the poker more entertaining and sociable being able to sweat each other’s hands. That’s why all poker live-streamed has hole cards up.

At the very least you can always decline to show your cards with some version of this exchange
- “no I’m not showing you my hand”
-“but why?”
-“You have a terrible poker face and that’s why we always invite you”
 

Ben8257

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I feel like it is happens pretty often... I show someone out of a hand what I have... I don't see it as a huge deal. But if those are the rules then players should abide by them! Welcome to the forum... from your neighbors to the south!! Fellow Chipper Ben
 

upNdown

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Depending on how many folks like to sweat each other’s hands, you might have an uphill battle. It does make the poker more entertaining and sociable being able to sweat each other’s hands. That’s why all poker live-streamed has hole cards up.

At the very least you can always decline to show your cards with some version of this exchange
- “no I’m not showing you my hand”
-“but why?”
-“You have a terrible poker face and that’s why we always invite you”
I like this.
Listen, it's your game, you can make whatever rules you want. But you should probably have a good reason why you want to kill everybody's fun.
I don't believe this showing your folded neighbor your cards is actually covered by the one player to a hand rule, though I'm not 100% sure.
I will say that I see people doing this in card rooms quite frequently. The only rule I see applied is "show one, show all" - so if you showed your neighbor your cards, everybody else is entitled to see them when the hand is over.
 
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Eloe2000

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I’m just curious because this context matters and makes the difference between an implication in the game vs a friendly habit... but does the person who is out of the hand and shown the cards say anything at all or give any expression or reaction for the rest of the hand? Because if so, that can have serious implications on the hand.
 

upNdown

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Roberts Rules of Poker does not allow for the behavior you are complaining about, and everyone who plays at my home games knows I follow and enforce RROP version 11
I don't believe that's true. Care to share the specific rule?
 

Jambine

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but does the person who is out of the hand and shown the cards say anything at all or give any expression or reaction for the rest of the hand?
That is where the damage is done. You potentially cost the remaining players REAL money. The hand is not over and you are sharing information about cards not in play.
 

Jambine

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I don't believe that's true. Care to share the specific rule?
Wow! let me count the ways. This ONLY the violations under poker etiquete

POKER ETIQUETTE
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
Deliberately acting out of turn.
Deliberately splashing chips into the pot.
Agreeing to check a hand out when a third player is all-in.
Softplaying by refusing to bet against a certain opponent whenever heads-up.
Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.
Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown.
Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete.
Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player.

Needlessly stalling the action of a game.
Deliberately discarding hands away from the muck. Cards should be released in a low line of flight, at a moderate rate of speed (not at the dealer's hands or chip-rack).
Stacking chips in a manner that interferes with dealing or viewing cards.
Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
Using a cell phone at the table
 

Ben8257

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Ohh I meant only the live cards being shown not mucked cards... that should never be allowed, that definitely gives information. But only showing a folded player your live cards which happens everywhere, and nothing is said. I don't see the harm, and I agree if another player says what did you show at the end of the hand. All should have a right to see the cards.
 

Jambine

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But only showing a folded player your live cards which happens everywhere, and nothing is said
That is soooo not true. Not sure what "everywhere" means, but it does not include any serious game for real money. Yes, maybe in a home tourny with a $10 buy in.
 

BGinGA

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Allowing a player with a live hand to show his cards to somebody else is not allowed, because it opens the possibilities of collusion and violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule. Period.

Just don't do it. If you can't contain yourself until the end of the hand when card sharing is legal, you have no business playing cards for money.
 

upNdown

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Wow! let me count the ways. This ONLY the violations under poker etiquete

POKER ETIQUETTE
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
Deliberately acting out of turn.
Deliberately splashing chips into the pot.
Agreeing to check a hand out when a third player is all-in.
Softplaying by refusing to bet against a certain opponent whenever heads-up.
Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.
Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown.
Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete.
Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player.

Needlessly stalling the action of a game.
Deliberately discarding hands away from the muck. Cards should be released in a low line of flight, at a moderate rate of speed (not at the dealer's hands or chip-rack).
Stacking chips in a manner that interferes with dealing or viewing cards.
Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
Using a cell phone at the table
Which one of those rules says you can't show your hand to a neighbor who has folded? I'm serious.
 

upNdown

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That is soooo not true. Not sure what "everywhere" means, but it does not include any serious game for real money. Yes, maybe in a home tourny with a $10 buy in.
I mean I've seen it happen in Foxwoods tournaments. I know that doesn't make it right, but I haven't seen a rule that says it's wrong.
Allowing a player with a live hand to show his cards to somebody else is not allowed, because it opens the possibilities of collusion and violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule. Period.
I don't think it violates the one player per hand rule. I agree with the wikipedia definition, for whatever that's worth.
One player to a hand. One player to a hand is an important poker rule designed to promote fair play that is universally applied in casino play. It states that all game decisions about the play of each hand must be made by one player without any assistance.
 

BGinGA

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I don't think it violates the one player per hand rule. I agree with the wikipedia definition, for whatever that's worth.
One player to a hand. One player to a hand is an important poker rule designed to promote fair play that is universally applied in casino play. It states that all game decisions about the play of each hand must be made by one player without any assistance.
If you show your cards to another person, that is by definition 'more than one player'. Signals from that second person to the player holding cards are now possible that could affect play.

If you agree with the wiki definition, then you surely realize that sharing cards violates it.
 

Ben8257

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Lmao $10 home tourneys... ok, no worries I would not enjoy playing with people that up tight anyways, I guess poker is something different to everyone. This guy is going to make new rules and wonder In less than a month why everytime he asks the guys for a game he can't get more than 3 or 4 players that don't say sorry "i'm busy". I have played in both and no thank you to the overly critical games...

@BGinGA I have invites even during Covid, some people enjoy being around other fun people no matter the stakes, I have been playing in card rooms, casinos and yes mostly home games for 19 years man... this has never been an issue and I always get invited back! I think I will continue playing even against your advice.
 

Frogzilla

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If you show your cards to another person, that is by definition 'more than one player'. Signals from that second person to the player holding cards are now possible that could affect play.

If you agree with the wiki definition, then you surely realize that sharing cards violates it.
Well the 2nd player signaling is the only part thats disallowed by the rules above. None of them say you can’t show your cards to a player who has already folded
 

upNdown

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If you show your cards to another person, that is by definition 'more than one player'. Signals from that second person to the player holding cards are now possible that could affect play.

If you agree with the wiki definition, then you surely realize that sharing cards violates it.
I agree that it opens up the possibility of bad things happening, and best practices say not to do it. But no, you can show somebody else your cards and still make all the decisions about the hand by yourself - which is what happens 99% of the times this is done. And I'm kind of just arguing here, but I've seen this happen COUNTLESS times, and I've never seen it affect the hand.
And I realize this is a weird example, but I remember seeing a drunken Scotty Nguyen show his hole cards to the audience at a WSOP final table, and no warnings were given.
 

trigs

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I have played with a player who constantly shows his live hands to the guy sitting next to him while he's tanking forever thinking about what to do. I have considered complaining or at the very least saying after the hand he needs to show the whole table, but I haven't up to this point. He doesn't do it all the time but enough that it bugs me. At the very least, the guy who gets to see his hole cards is getting an unfair advantage compared to the rest of the table.
 

upNdown

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Oh duh - I didn't read the second sentence of this rule - I assumed it referred to tabling a hand.
Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player.
Yeah, it violates Roberts rules.
For the record, if there's a guy in the game who HAS to get a peek at neighbors' hands every time he folds, yeah that would annoy the hell out of me.
 

Gobbs

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When a live player shows a player out of the hand his/her cards, both players are violating one or more rules. It is pretty clear and there is really no question about it. The real question is, how tightly do you want to enforce the rules? First, let's get the formality of proving that the action is against the rules and both the person showing his/her live hand and the person viewing it are violating rules.

Robert's Rules of Poker is incredibly explicit when it says, "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded (sic) pot before the betting is complete." I don't know how you can get more straightforward than that. While the hand is going on, if a player reveals the contents of his/her live hand before betting is complete, he/she is violating the rule.​

A second rule states: "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot." Obviously, showing your cards to a player or looking at another player's cards while the cards are live, with or without permission, is "taking action" and could unfairly influence play. Notice, it doesn't say that the action has to unfairly influence the course of play, but that it COULD influence it. Obviously, somebody not in the hand that knows another person's cards while play is still going on could unfairly affect play in many ways, both intentionally and unintentionally. Therefore, showing your cards to another player or looking at another player's cards during play is a clear violation of the rules by both players.​
Last, but not least, there is this: "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: ... Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player." While this particular rule refers to folded hands, it provides insight into the intention of the rule set, which is that letting somebody know the contents of your hand, even to somebody not in the pot, is bad because it opens up the possibility of information being transmitted to an active player and unfairly influencing the course of play.​
Now that we have that cleared up, let's get to the real question...how closely do you want to enforce the rules? Of course, a tournament director can choose to not enforce the rule, get rid of the rule, etc. However, for me, it gets back to the old standby that any good tournament director lives, breathes, and dies by: "If you want to keep a friendly game of poker friendly, have a good rule set and enforce the rules fairly and consistently." To me, these are two very fundamental rules that should be a part of any good rule set. There is a reason Robert Ciaffone chose to put them right at the front in Section 1.
 
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