Cash Game Ruling Assistance (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

If this situation came up in most of the home games I’ve played in, based on the typical amateur player pools, I expect this is what would go down:

1. The dealer and players would each feel sure that *they* saw what order the flop cards came out, and try to identify the burn.

2. There would be lots of confusion/disagreement about it.

3. Information could be gleaned from the reactions of players in the hand about how they felt about the flop.

4. At least one person would be unhappy with the ruling, regardless of what it was.

5. Either shuffling all exposed cards back or shuffling just the exposed cards back would feel like less acceptable options to most players than just trying to identify the correct burn... Correct based decisions would would not be viewed as right by some of the players—especially if they were “sure” they saw the order cards were flopped.

6. If I were a player in the hand, I’d probably feel compelled to say absolutely nothing, since almost anything said would either give hints about my holdings, or could be viewed as an angle to mislead about my holdings, no matter how honestly the opinion on the ruling was given.

So, bottom line: Remember to burn!

 

[Legend5555]

Yeah, that's what they all say. Until it actually happens.

I can't think of any reason I would care other than it's not efficient to deal that way.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I can't think of any reason I would care other than it's not efficient to deal that way.

First time he deals that way and gets aces, you might care. The second time and he gets aces I strongly suspect you'd wish for a return to normal dealing.

Now if he just happened to deal himself aces twice using a normal method, you probably wouldn't question anything.

 

[BGinGA]

I can't think of any reason I would care other than it's not efficient to deal that way.

Most efficient method is two cards at a time, once around the table. Or skip the shuffle altogether -- just do a quick table wash, and have everybody just draw two cards out of the pile.

 

[abby99]

FWIW, the only time I recall seeing a dealer forget to burn before the flop, it was a professional dealer.

 

[surfik]

Dobyoubuse printed rules at your home game?

We treat a missed flop burn like any other exposed card. Show it to the table, then burn it.

I'm wondering if this is posted here because our way of doing things is different from what @BGinGA answered and one of your players wanted RRoP/TDA followed (tho how TDA has any application in a cash game is beyond me).

The idea o print rules is great both for tournaments and cash game. Problem is not many people does it.
At my table.. (we played in pool club, I was 90% bank) I was the one to make the ruling, I had about 25 regulars plus 20 "tourists". When sitting at the table one had to accept table rules. To be fair I have consulted some of decisions with a guy who once worked for 5 years a EPT tournament director. Key factor was consistency of rulings but as time go by I had to consult some rules with players like for instance at the beginning for a few years we had a rule to show both hands when all in situation took place just to make it fun for all participants, as time go by and more bystanders joined a game (we never exclude anyone if the seat was open and guy was not drunk, as it is against fair play rules not to mention that slows the game) we accepted ruling that only wining hand needs to be shown... Again in that situation any possible slow rollers were discouraged to follow their behavior.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The idea o print rules is great both for tournaments and cash game. Problem is not many people does it.
At my table.. (we played in pool club, I was 90% bank) I was the one to make the ruling, I had about 25 regulars plus 20 "tourists". When sitting at the table one had to accept table rules. To be fair I have consulted some of decisions with a guy who once worked for 5 years a EPT tournament director. Key factor was consistency of rulings but as time go by I had to consult some rules with players like for instance at the beginning for a few years we had a rule to show both hands when all in situation took place just to make it fun for all participants, as time go by and more bystanders joined a game (we never exclude anyone if the seat was open and guy was not drunk, as it is against fair play rules not to mention that slows the game) we accepted ruling that only wining hand needs to be shown... Again in that situation any possible slow rollers were discouraged to follow their behavior.

Correct answer is to show cards in order, or fold. It keeps the game moving quickly. In our game, if first to show doesn't fold or show before another player does, his cards are automatically exposed. If he wanted the cards mucked, he should have moved faster.

That really keeps the showdown moving along.

 

[Taghkanic]

RE: Delays: I don’t usually find that the actual dealing part of self-dealt games contributes more than a little to the overall delays in games.

It’s the steady accumulation of small but significant hold ups mainly due to inattention to the action, not remembering to put the blinds out, finishing some conversation about a prior hand or something totally unrelated before acting, the players who always have to ask “Is the bet on me?” or “How much is it?” or “What are the blinds?” ... Or the players who get up from the table constantly to smoke or eat or piss, then run back just before they’re mucked to look at their hand... All that stuff.

Sure, those types of players also tend to be slower to shuffle/deal promptly.

But then, most of all, there’s the totally unnecessary tanking.

There are the habitual tanks (people who think they have to take 8.75 seconds per action, on every action, no matter what, because that’s what they saw Vogelsang or whoever doing during the WSOP). Then there are three-minute tanks (when you know they are folding anyway) where they aren’t actually doing any real analysis, just trying to work themselves up to a call they’ll never make.

One long tank does even more damage than dozens and dozens of small errors due to inattention or bad deals. I’m all for taking the time on the rare occasions when it is a real decision and you actually need to think through all the action, ranges, combinations, etc. But to do it just because it’s a “sick spot”—when the player isn’t really doing more than agonizing—drives me bonkers.

Point being: a lot of that same stuff happens in games with hired dealers, too.

 

[Legend5555]

First time he deals that way and gets aces, you might care. The second time and he gets aces I strongly suspect you'd wish for a return to normal dealing.

Now if he just happened to deal himself aces twice using a normal method, you probably wouldn't question anything.

Now you aren't comparing apples to apples. You are assuming the person is doing it with bad intentions. That's not what we were implying at all.

 

[Legend5555]

Most efficient method is two cards at a time, once around the table. Or skip the shuffle altogether -- just do a quick table wash, and have everybody just draw two cards out of the pile.

I wasn't claiming the normal dealing method was the most efficient. Just that the random nonsense certainly wasn't.

 

[Beakertwang]

There are the habitual tanks (people who think they have to take 8.75 seconds per action, on every action, no matter what, because that’s what they saw Vogelsang or whoever doing during the WSOP). Then there are three-minute tanks (when you know they are folding anyway) where they aren’t actually doing any real analysis, just trying to work themselves up to a call they’ll never make.

I've got one guy who does this a lot. I actually like having him play, because he's not a terrible player and he generally keeps the action moving, but there are multiple times a night where he's facing a raise, and he'll tank, cut the chips out for a call, mumble to himself, etc., but I just know from the beginning of the show that he's going to fold.

 

[detroitdad]

I've got one guy who does this a lot. I actually like having him play, because he's not a terrible player and he generally keeps the action moving, but there are multiple times a night where he's facing a raise, and he'll tank, cut the chips out for a call, mumble to himself, etc., but I just know from the beginning of the show that he's going to fold.

@ThePunk plays at your game?

 

[Poker Zombie]

Now you aren't comparing apples to apples. You are assuming the person is doing it with bad intentions. That's not what we were implying at all.

Just the opposite - I'm assuming the person is doing it without bad intentions. However, if he just happened to get Aces twice while dealing in an atypical manor it would appear to be done with bad intentions, no matter how innocent.

 

[Josh Kifer]

You’re crazy. Dealing the entire time while playing really stinks. Especially if you are dealing with games where you have to keep track of pot sizes. I find it difficult to focus on dealing and keeping the game moving while playing my hands at the same time. We rotate the deal in our games, although some of us want to switch to a dedicated dealer.

I am the dedicated dealer for every game at our place. Only way we can get hands out with any sort of speed.

 

[Hornet]

I am the dedicated dealer for every game at our place. Only way we can get hands out with any sort of speed.

If you come to Columbus, I’ll gladly pay you $15/hr

 

[Josh Kifer]

If you come to Columbus, I’ll gladly pay you $15/hr

Don't tempt me.

 

[Dix]

Then there are three-minute tanks (when you know they are folding anyway) where they aren’t actually doing any real analysis, just trying to work themselves up to a call they’ll never make.

But to do it just because it’s a “sick spot”—when the player isn’t really doing more than agonizing—drives me bonkers.

Point being: a lot of that same stuff happens in games with hired dealers, too.

I've got one guy who does this a lot. I actually like having him play, because he's not a terrible player and he generally keeps the action moving, but there are multiple times a night where he's facing a raise, and he'll tank, cut the chips out for a call, mumble to himself, etc., but I just know from the beginning of the show that he's going to fold.

I play against one of those at one of our local tourneys as well.

Cheapest & easiest bluffing opportunity ever. Throw out 1/4 pot, if he doesn't call within 3 seconds he's folding..... every time.

& if he does call, then you know you're up against top pair minimum... every time.

 

[Hornet]

Don't tempt me.

 

[Josh Kifer]

View attachment 386756

How many hours a week? 401k?

 

[Hornet]

How many hours a week? 401k?

5 hours a week guaranteed. If you’re lucky, 10-15.

Is 401k like a lottery thing? I’ll give you a scratch off card for every session.

 

[Beakertwang]

I am the dedicated dealer for every game at our place. Only way we can get hands out with any sort of speed.

We get 20 hands/hour in our tourneys using 2 decks. After the initial confusion, and just the slightest push back, everyone likes it.

 

[Josh Kifer]

5 hours a week guaranteed. If you’re lucky, 10-15.

Is 401k like a lottery thing? I’ll give you a scratch off card for every session.

No, but I'm a degen so it was worth turning the screws. Free scratchers!!!

 

[Josh Kifer]

We get 20 hands/hour in our tourneys using 2 decks. After the initial confusion, and just the slightest push back, everyone likes it.

I'd say it's mathematically impossible for 2-3 of our players to deal. And honestly, I don't mind it. I think I play better when I deal. I don't second-guess my choices nearly as much.

 

[Legend5555]

Just the opposite - I'm assuming the person is doing it without bad intentions. However, if he just happened to get Aces twice while dealing in an atypical manor it would appear to be done with bad intentions, no matter how innocent.

But the same claim can be made about dealing normally. There is no difference other than it not being the norm. Bottom line, if anyone got some weird distribution of hands while dealing to themselves, then you should be suspicious. How they decide to deal the cards out shouldn't matter at all.

 

[Poker Zombie]

But the same claim can be made about dealing normally. There is no difference other than it not being the norm. Bottom line, if anyone got some weird distribution of hands while dealing to themselves, then you should be suspicious. How they decide to deal the cards out shouldn't matter at all.

I have absolutely seen anomalous scenarios occur. If the dealer is dealing normally, the cards were cut by a second party, and a third person shuffled - I would never question it.

Take any one of those out of the equation, and red flags go up.

There is a difference.

 

[WedgeRock]

I have absolutely seen anomalous scenarios occur. If the dealer is dealing normally, the cards were cut by a second party, and a third person shuffled - I would never question it.

Take any one of those out of the equation, and red flags go up.

There is a difference.

So you're saying it's all random... Until it's not.

 

[Legend5555]

I have absolutely seen anomalous scenarios occur. If the dealer is dealing normally, the cards were cut by a second party, and a third person shuffled - I would never question it.

Take any one of those out of the equation, and red flags go up.

There is a difference.

But we never made assumptions on the shuffling and cutting. We are simply taking about dealing out the cards in a non-standard way. If the shuffle and cut weren't "clean," then I'd care no matter how the cards are pitched.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Not sure if you are tolling now, or if your reading comprehension is below what I expected.

Take any one of those out of the equation, and red flags go up.

Improper dealing is just one of the things I mentioned.

One (Pronoun) Referring to a person or thing previously mentioned or easily identified.

Hope that helps.

 

[Legend5555]

Not sure if you are tolling now, or if your reading comprehension is below what I expected.



Improper dealing is just one of the things I mentioned.

One (Pronoun) Referring to a person or thing previously mentioned or easily identified.

Hope that helps.

My point is that you brought up issues that aren't really related to the act of just dealing out the cards in a weird way. Any rational person understands that how you deal out the cards (one at a time clockwise, counterclockwise, two at a time to each player, randomly until everyone has the right number of cards) doesn't affect the randomness of the deal. So bringing up other aspects like the shuffle and cut has nothing to do with where this conversation started.

There is no rational reason to think dealing the cards in a non-standard way matters at all. It's other things like what you pointed out that are concerning. I think bringing those up is pointless since I'd imagine nearly everyone agrees that those things being out of order should raise suspicion.

Other than tradition, there isn't any real reason why one at a time clockwise is the "right" way.

 

[BGinGA]

#makepassiveaggressivetrollinggreatagain