Tourney Rebuys in bounty tourneys? (7 Viewers)

[Beakertwang]

Curious if any of you allow rebuys in bounty tournaments.

Also, what percentage of the buy-in is optimal for the bounty?

 

[krafticus]

Yes. Full buy in = 1 rebuy per person. New bounty part of the buy in

 

[BGinGA]

I do it both ways -- some events you surrender your bounty chip only when eliminated from the event (thus bounty chips are not included with re-buy stacks), while in other events, you lose it when felted and are issued a new bounty chip with each re-buy. Both approaches work fine.

Personally, I like the bounty value to be approximately 20%-25% of the entry/re-buy cost ($100 entry includes $20 bounty, or $20 entry includes $5 bounty, for example). But this too can vary wildly, including up to and including bounty-only tournaments, where zero prize money is paid -- only bounty money is awarded.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Re-buys, yes. We do a $50 buy-in with $10 going to the bounty. You get another bounty chip with each re-buy.

 

[CraigT78]

$50 tournament and $10 to bounty. Rebuy costs you $10 for a new bounty unless you chip surrender.

 

[Aaron]

We’ve been having fun by selling bounties up front.

Bounty Poker tournament with re-buys. $40 total with optional $5 dealer add on. Includes T5000 starting stack with T2500 for dealer add on. 4 bounty chips redeemable for $5 each. $10 re-buy will get you T5000 in chips. Eligible for re-buys as long as you have a bounty chip in your possession (no matter how you get it)

 

[JustinInMN]

Tournaments I play 50+10 bounty is typical. And yes applies to reentries.

 

[Venturalvn]

I'm hosting my first tourney in a month and am thinking this same format. Still haven't figured out if unlimited rebuys for the first hour is the way to go, or if one rebuy per person keeps the game moving better.

$50 with $10 going to Bounty
All rebuys = the same

Should we do 1 rebuy per person or unlimited for the first hour?

 

[krafticus]

I'm hosting my first tourney in a month and am thinking this same format. Still haven't figured out if unlimited rebuys for the first hour is the way to go, or if one rebuy per person keeps the game moving better.

$50 with $10 going to Bounty
All rebuys = the same

Should we do 1 rebuy per person or unlimited for the first hour?

I'm a fan of 1. More than that gives deeper pockets a plan to play reckless. Maybe not even deeper pockets, but people will try the double up or rebuy option more often than not. it almost makes your tournament more like a cash game until you cannot rebuy. Those who come with 1 buy in might not appreciate the fireballer either, and stop coming if they constantly do that. My Opinion...

 

[Venturalvn]

I'm a fan of 1. More than that gives deeper pockets a plan to play reckless. Maybe not even deeper pockets, but people will try the double up or rebuy option more often than not. it almost makes your tournament more like a cash game until you cannot rebuy. Those who come with 1 buy in might not appreciate the fireballer either, and stop coming if they constantly do that. My Opinion...

This is a great point. I wasn't going to bother with rebuy chips but if I'm only giving one out per player then obviously I have no choice but to add on to my custom ABC set

I'm new to setting up a tourney, but do you account for rebuys when planning out a blinds structure?

 

[Beakertwang]

This is a great point. I wasn't going to bother with rebuy chips but if I'm only giving one out per player then obviously I have no choice but to add on to my custom ABC set

I'm new to setting up a tourney, but do you account for rebuys when planning out a blinds structure?

As I understand it, tourneys will typically end when there are a total of 20 big blinds in play. So really, you should just estimate how many rebuys you’ll have, and calculate those chips into the total.

 

[BGinGA]

If the structure is relatively deep and sound, there usually won't be much of an opportunity for multiple re-buys per person. Typical re-buy rate is between 25%-33% of field size, provided starting stacks are 200bb+, and re-buys end when worth roughly 25bb or less.

A typical re-buy rate has little effect on tournament length.

 

[Venturalvn]

If the structure is relatively deep and sound, there usually won't be much of an opportunity for multiple re-buys per person. Typical re-buy rate is between 25%-33% of field size, provided starting stacks are 200bb+, and re-buys end when worth roughly 25bb or less.

A typical re-buy rate has little effect on tournament length.

As I started thinking about structure today I came to this conclusion. If rebuys are open for the first hour, but the first hour plays pretty open, then there shouldn't be a reason for too many people to go broke. Interesting...

 

[Mr Winberg]

How about add-ons? If I get felted and rebuy, it makes perfect sense that the player who felted me gets my bounty chip and I need to buy a new one when rebuying, but for add-ons (let's say they are the same size as the starting stack), do you just charge the same buy-in amount minus the bounty? E.g., buy-ins and rebuys are 20+5, but add-ons are only 20?

 

[BGinGA]

How about add-ons? If I get felted and rebuy, it makes perfect sense that the player who felted me gets my bounty chip and I need to buy a new one when rebuying, but for add-ons (let's say they are the same size as the starting stack), do you just charge the same buy-in amount minus the bounty? E.g., buy-ins and rebuys are 20+5, but add-ons are only 20?

The optional add-ons in my events are rarely (almost never) equal to the starting stack -- they're usually around 10-15bb (of the blinds at time of add-on), and typically run between 33%-50% of the starting stack size, pending structure. If you really think your group needs a starting stack sized add-on, then the starting stacks probably aren't large enough. The larger the add-on, the less important a part is played by all of the hands in the first few blind rounds leading up to it. Chips up front are more valuable than chips received later.

Charity tournaments are a different animal: it's whatever-it-takes-to-shake-loose-more-cash for charity donations.

One thing to keep in mind is that chips purchased later in the tournament (add-ons) are not worth as much as chips purchased initially (buy-ins) or even early-purchased re-buy stacks, since they represent far fewer big blinds at the time they are made available. Prices for add-ons should at least partially reflect that lesser value, in terms of a reduced price (when compared to the initial buy-in).

For example, an event with a $55 buy-in for T10000 chips (200BB with 25/50 opening blinds) plus a $5 bounty chip might offer a $50 (or $55) re-buy option (depending on whether the bounty is forfeited when felted or totally eliminated), with an optional T5000 add-on for $25 (half-stack at half-price) at the end of the re-buy period (which is only worth 12.5BB at the current 200/400 blind level).

The actual cost of the initial buy-in stack chips works out to 25c per BB (50/200), while the add-on cost is much, much higher at $2 per BB (25/12.5) -- eight times as much as their actual 'value' at this point in the event. Lowering the add-on charge to just $15 instead of $25 (for the same T5000 chips) reduces the cost of the add-on chips to $1.20 per BB -- still almost 5x as much as the initial buy-in, but not as poor of a deal as $2/BB would be.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Thanks @BGinGA, as always a pleasure to read your answers.

The add-on size was just an example to clarify the question, but if I understood your answer correctly the bounty cost is simply removed for add-ons, as I suspected.

That said, I do have some thoughts and questions regarding different kinds of add-ons, how they affect play, how much to charge (and how that should correspond to ICM calculations vs nr of BBs bought), etc, but that's for another thread, I don't want to derail this one too much.

 

[justsomedude]

I am bringing this thread back to life, because there has been some heated discussion in our local text group over this issue.

Specifically, as I am planning my 5th Annual BBQ poker tournament, I did not plan on issuing a bounty chip with each rebuy stack. This caused some protest and consternation. Almost every player argued that a rebuy stack should include a new bounty chip, as many do in this thread.

I've always struggled with this approach, as it just never made sense to me. How can there be 30 bounty chips on the tables with only 24 entered players??? And I think the issue I am having centers around one primary concern: a rebuy is not the same as a re-entry. In a rebuy, especially in a home game, the player maintains their table location, their seat, and even their orbit position; the rebuy is merely an option to replenish their stack. It is almost the exact same as a cash rebuy - you are simply reloading your chips; no more, no less. From a technical tournament standpoint the player hasn't really been eliminated, as the rebuy is basically an addon option with a "0-chip minimum" rule. Would you really expect a new Bounty chip with an addon? The way I see it, there should be only one bounty chip per player entry.

Being up with the baby tonight, I decided to do some more digging on this issue, and found that I am not the only one who shares this view. There is a thread over on 2+2 about this very issue, and I think this gentleman sums it up nicely regarding a similar problem that cropped up at a home game:

You can do rebuys, just make sure players do not give away their bounty chip until they are completely eliminated. If a player is rebuying they keep their bounty chip. So bounties will prolly be made after rebuy period is over.

I've never seen bounty chips approached this way before, but it makes a lot of sense to me as it relates to rebuys vs. re-entrys. It also has me wondering... has everyone been doing Bounty chips with rebuys wrong?

It seems most hosts either require a new Bounty at rebuy, or like I have normally done it, forced players to relinquish their Bounty when busted during the rebuy period (without getting a new one). But now I don't think either implementation is correct.

I am now thinking that the correct approach (in a rebuy, not re-entry tournament) is to have the rebuy player keep his bounty chip, and it only becomes "live" after the rebuy period ends. If a player is busted before the rebuy period ends and does not rebuy, they must then relinquish their bounty chip at that time.

Thoughts? Concerns?

 

[boeller]

I played a few tournaments where the bounty was optional, you could choose if you want one or not. If you decline, you can't win another mans bounty.

But not getting a bounty chip for elminating a player with a bounty chip sounds odd to me. The whole bounty reward thing for me is a way to loose up the game and give players more ev to call. Would the player need to answer if he is going to rebuy before i call his all-in?

Therefore i'm heavy in the new chip each rebuy camp.

 

[justsomedude]

But not getting a bounty chip for elminating a player with a bounty chip sounds odd to me.

But a rebuy is technically not an elimination.

 

[boeller]

technically i got all his chips - so he is out - till he rebuys - but for a short moment he is eliminated since he got 0 chips

So how would you rule the whole asking about rebuy stuff? I mean it should be your players right to know what he can win on a call.

 

[justsomedude]

technically i got all his chips - so he is out - till he rebuys - but for a short moment he is eliminated since he got 0 chips

Technically, that is not correct. And that is the difference between a rebuy and a re-entry tournament.

So how would you rule the whole asking about rebuy stuff? I mean it should be your players right to know what he can win on a call.

That is definitely a risk of pushing hard early in a rebuy tournaments. If you are acting to win a $5 bounty chip, you need to know that the player could choose to rebuy. And the 0-chip player has to make an instantaneous decision on the rebuy. If they want to sit around a few hands while they think it over, they are eliminated. But they could still re-enter later (if that option exists).

Re-buy

1. You remain at the same seat when you re-buy.
2. You often don't pay rake again.
3. These games tend to play looser before the re-buys end of re-buys and tighter after.
4. If you decide to not re-buy straight away you're gone from the tournament.

Re-entry

1. When re-entering you will be moved seat and table, if possible. If it's a big tournament and there is a waiting list you will be put to the end of the list if you want to re-enter.
2. You will pay rake again.
3. Games, often, don't play looser normally before re-entries end.
4. You can walk away and come back and re-enter whenever you want, as long as re-entries are still available.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Technically, that is not correct. And that is the difference between a rebuy and a re-entry tournament.



That is definitely a risk of pushing hard early in a rebuy tournaments. If you are acting to win a $5 bounty chip, you need to know that the player could choose to rebuy. And the 0-chip player has to make an instantaneous decision on the rebuy. If they want to sit around a few hands while they think it over, they are eliminated. But they could still re-enter later (if that option exists).

Re-buy

1. You remain at the same seat when you re-buy.
2. You often don't pay rake again.
3. These games tend to play looser before the re-buys end of re-buys and tighter after.
4. If you decide to not re-buy straight away you're gone from the tournament.

Re-entry

1. When re-entering you will be moved seat and table, if possible. If it's a big tournament and there is a waiting list you will be put to the end of the list if you want to re-enter.
2. You will pay rake again.
3. Games, often, don't play looser normally before re-entries end.
4. You can walk away and come back and re-enter whenever you want, as long as re-entries are still available.

Plus, each re-entry counts as a separate entry for determining the number of prizes paid. I always state ours are "re-entries" as it gives me more flexibility.

 

[BGinGA]

There are a LOT of ways a bounty tournament can be structured, and there is no single right or wrong answer as to how to do it -- just different preferences and different end goals.

Optional vs mandatory, low-cost vs high-percentage-cost, lost-stack vs totally-eliminated, multiple-value bounties, progressive bounties, even 100% bounty-only events where the entire prize pool is payable only to bounty winners, plus various combinations of those options. And they all work just fine.

Generally speaking, the greater the relative bounty value, the more aggressive players will become in trying to win them. Ditto for when the number of available bounties that can be won is increased.

For many years, our premier league tournaments have featured both a mandatory low-cost lost-stack bounty chip with an optional double-cost totally-eliminated bounty chip.

Most of our other re-buy/bounty events require total elimination to collect.

 

[Beaniman]

I am bringing this thread back to life, because there has been some heated discussion in our local text group over this issue.

Specifically, as I am planning my 5th Annual BBQ poker tournament, I did not plan on issuing a bounty chip with each rebuy stack. This caused some protest and consternation. Almost every player argued that a rebuy stack should include a new bounty chip, as many do in this thread.

I've always struggled with this approach, as it just never made sense to me. How can there be 30 bounty chips on the tables with only 24 entered players??? And I think the issue I am having centers around one primary concern: a rebuy is not the same as a re-entry. In a rebuy, especially in a home game, the player maintains their table location, their seat, and even their orbit position; the rebuy is merely an option to replenish their stack. It is almost the exact same as a cash rebuy - you are simply reloading your chips; no more, no less. From a technical tournament standpoint the player hasn't really been eliminated, as the rebuy is basically an addon option with a "0-chip minimum" rule. Would you really expect a new Bounty chip with an addon? The way I see it, there should be only one bounty chip per player entry.

Being up with the baby tonight, I decided to do some more digging on this issue, and found that I am not the only one who shares this view. There is a thread over on 2+2 about this very issue, and I think this gentleman sums it up nicely regarding a similar problem that cropped up at a home game:




I've never seen bounty chips approached this way before, but it makes a lot of sense to me as it relates to rebuys vs. re-entrys. It also has me wondering... has everyone been doing Bounty chips with rebuys wrong?

It seems most hosts either require a new Bounty at rebuy, or like I have normally done it, forced players to relinquish their Bounty when busted during the rebuy period (without getting a new one). But now I don't think either implementation is correct.

I am now thinking that the correct approach (in a rebuy, not re-entry tournament) is to have the rebuy player keep his bounty chip, and it only becomes "live" after the rebuy period ends. If a player is busted before the rebuy period ends and does not rebuy, they must then relinquish their bounty chip at that time.

Thoughts? Concerns?

I do not agree. Just my opinion & obviously there are good points on each side. My 2 cents is;

If you bust a player with one bullet and get his bounty ($$ value) , am I somehow less entitled to the bounty payout for busting some guy with deep pockets? That seems a little suspect if not simply unfair. Unequal reward for equal achievement/risk/skill whatever you call it.

It's like only the last guy to touch your car with a rag at a team carwash being the only one that gets paid, in my mind. Everyone did the same amount of work but only one guy gets paid...

For me I feel like bounties do 2 things. Firstly they generate some degree of action and opportunities for people to "cash" without placing = happier players + bragging & hecklers rights.

Secondly I feel like they represent an investment & therefore risk. This can help limit reckless play before the rebuy period ends for folks with deep pockets. *If they know they have to pay for an additional bounty, say 40+10 for their next buyin vs getting the next buy in for a reduced cost. I would even consider charging more for their 2nd bounty 40+15 maybe, for reasons.

I'd entertain bounties only being paid on "elimination" only if they accumulated bounties at each buyin, but I dont think players would see it as fair. Seeing as they bust a guy only to put another bounty in his stack for the next person in a position to pop a reckless player

 

[justsomedude]

I do not agree. Just my opinion & obviously there are good points on each side. My 2 cents is;

If you bust a player with one bullet and get his bounty ($$ value) , am I somehow less entitled to the bounty payout for busting some guy with deep pockets? That seems a little suspect if not simply unfair. Unequal reward for equal achievement/risk/skill whatever you call it.

It's like only the last guy to touch your car with a rag at a team carwash being the only one that gets paid, in my mind. Everyone did the same amount of work but only one guy gets paid...

For me I feel like bounties do 2 things. Firstly they generate some degree of action and opportunities for people to "cash" without placing = happier players + bragging & hecklers rights.

Secondly I feel like they represent an investment & therefore risk. This can help limit reckless play before the rebuy period ends for folks with deep pockets. *If they know they have to pay for an additional bounty, say 40+10 for their next buyin vs getting the next buy in for a reduced cost. I would even consider charging more for their 2nd bounty 40+15 maybe, for reasons.

I'd entertain bounties only being paid on "elimination" only if they accumulated bounties at each buyin, but I dont think players would see it as fair. Seeing as they bust a guy only to put another bounty in his stack for the next person in a position to pop a reckless player

I understand the argument, but I guess the way I see it is that a reBuy is basically an AddOn with a zero-chip requirement. And I don't ever see AddOns as getting a Bounty chip.

Say I allowed rebuys with a different minimum chip rule. In the most extreme case, say that minimum was having 1 left in chip(s). If shorter-stacked players jammed with all of their chips except one, lost, and rebought, would you expect them to get a Bounty chip with the new stack?

 

[Beaniman]

I understand the argument, but I guess the way I see it is that a reBuy is basically an AddOn with a zero-chip requirement. And I don't see AddOns as getting a Bounty chip.

Say I allowed rebuys with a different minimum chip stack. In the most extreme case, say that minimum was 1-chip. If shorter-stacked players jammed with all of their chips except one, lost, and rebought, would you expect them to get a Bounty chip with the new stack?

I see your point but this is grossly unrealistic. If someone goes all in but 1 chip and is covered, that last chip is going in probably 99% of the time unless there is some odd alignment of insufficient chips to reopen betting situation OR they deceived the caller making them think they were all in "I didnt bet the 25 I was using for a card cover".

For my games Busted = bounty. If somehow you still had 1 chip you wouldn't be busted and could therefore addon. This isnt IMO a good argument against bounty per buyin. If this was exploited I would simply add another bounty chip to the addon. All players would like more opportunities to cash in on reckless players. The only people I would imagine that would argue against it are those looking to stack up or rebuy early. Let them pad the prize pool, but charge them for it.( @justsomedude tagged for edit)

 

[justsomedude]

Most of our other re-buy/bounty events require total elimination to collect.

I am now seeing it handled this way in other events, and I dig that. I will be implementing this approach.

 

[justsomedude]

I see your point but this is grossly unrealistic. If someone goes all in but 1 chip and is covered, that last chip is going in probably 99% of the time unless there is some odd alignment of insufficient chips to reopen betting situation OR they deceived the caller making them think they were all in "I didnt bet the 25 I was using for a card cover".

I understand, but there is a difference between reBuy vs. reEntry. In a reBuy tournament a player technically isn't "eliminated" until they forgo all of their reBuy options, or are felted after the Freezout period has begun.

I didn't make the rules.

Don't kill the messenger.

 

[Beaniman]

I think there is simply a problem with semantics for the word 'bounty', whereas it can mean 'busted' or 'eliminated' and each host can pick their poison on how they want to run it for better or worse. Your players will probably let you know if they dont like it.

 

[markleteenie]

It also has me wondering... has everyone been doing Bounty chips with rebuys wrong?

I think this is a bit harsh. I think there are lots of ways that bounties can work, just like there are lots of ways that tournament blind levels and minutes per blind levels, etc can work. I seem to remember in your 4th annual BBQ tournament, people lost their bounties on their first "knock-out" and then if they rebought, they didn't even have a Bounty chip in front of them. So that's yet another variation.

There are a LOT of ways a bounty tournament can be structured, and there is no single right or wrong answer as to how to do it -- just different preferences and different end goals.

+1

opportunities for people to "cash" without placing = happier players + bragging & hecklers rights

+1
To me, this is why you would institute a bounty, for a fun reason. Not that $5 will necessarily sway someone to calling an all-in, but it's a little temporary trophy that's a lot of fun. I used lots of bounties in my last tournament, even at the addon, and people really liked it. It's about fun.

Whatever way you implement, I'm coming for your bounty in May!!!! That'll cover a couple of the "antes" in the double board bomb pot hands in the cash game afterwards!